ConwayLife.com

Posted: **November 19th, 2023, 8:09 pm**

This thread is to discuss SL nomenclature to be used on LifeWiki.

What to consider:

Name given on Niemiec's Life Page (if any).
Name currently shown for the object on Catagolue (if any). In practice, it makes sense to keep LifeWiki and Catagolue in sync.
[As a wiki editor I can edit the wiki page, but I cannot edit the name displayed on Catagolue.]
Achim Flammenkamp's census (ash-pattern.txt)
Andrzej Okrasinski's census (lf020n.pdf)
Actual common usage in discussions (forum search)
Common sense

Some previous discussion:

"Inconsistent names" (Tiki bar, May 2023)
Talk:Python siamese snake (April-May 2023)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5479
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3492
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2268
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=296

I think having a single thread for these questions makes more sense than restarting discussion again and again in different places, or for example putting move requests on two pages to exchange their names without providing a suggestion where this issue should actually be discussed (discussing the same issue twice on talk pages of both articles would clearly be counterproductive).

Posted: **November 19th, 2023, 9:20 pm**

I should point out that most names on Catagolue were copied from the wiki, so a name being on Catagolue doesn't imply it's well established. Changing a name on Catagolue isn't very hard either.

As for the snake-ties, mniemiec's site lists "cis-snake-tie-snake" and "trans-snake-tie-snake" for what the wiki and Catagolue call "trans-snake-tie" and "cis-snake-tie" respectively. (Not sure how exactly that site works, but setting search type to "Simple" and searching for "cis-snake-tie-snake" brings up the pattern.) Swapping the names on the wiki and Catagolue would remove the mismatch. Considering the wiki editor who proposed the moves is the same person who made the pages in the first place, it's likely that the current page names were a mistake.

Posted: **November 19th, 2023, 9:28 pm**

Assuming that names for these two can be changed on Catagolue at the same time, I think it would make sense to use everywhere the same names as those given on Niemiec's page:

Code: Select all

#C 12.14; Cis snake tie snake
x = 6, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
2bob2o$2b2obo$2o$bo$o$2o!

Code: Select all

#C 12.15; Trans snake tie snake
x = 4, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
2b2o$3bo$2bo$2b2o$2o$bo$o$2o!

Note that there are no hyphens between words, and that these are not simply "the same names exchanged with each other" as was proposed in the proposed moves.

galoomba wrote: November 19th, 2023, 9:20 pm(Not sure how exactly that site works, but setting search type to "Simple" and searching for "cis-snake-tie-snake" brings up the pattern.)

These can be found by setting search type to "Image", entering the RLE and clicking "Search".

Posted: **November 19th, 2023, 10:33 pm**

confocaloid wrote: November 19th, 2023, 9:28 pm Note that there are no hyphens between words, and that these are not simply "the same names exchanged with each other" as was proposed in the proposed moves.

I think it still makes sense to use the shorter forms ("snake-tie" rather than "snake tie snake") in analogy with "boat-tie" and "ship-tie".

Posted: **November 20th, 2023, 8:07 am**

If you do not want to consider Catagolue as an evidence that some name is already in use, then the longer forms are better since they are already in use.
Excluding this discussion, I did not find uses of shorter versions of these on the forum.

galoomba wrote: November 19th, 2023, 9:20 pm I should point out that most names on Catagolue were copied from the wiki, so a name being on Catagolue doesn't imply it's well established.

confocaloid wrote: November 19th, 2023, 9:28 pm Assuming that names for these two can be changed on Catagolue at the same time, I think it would make sense to use everywhere the same names as those given on Niemiec's page:

galoomba wrote: November 19th, 2023, 10:33 pm I think it still makes sense to use the shorter forms ("snake-tie" rather than "snake tie snake") in analogy with "boat-tie" and "ship-tie".

Posted: **November 20th, 2023, 2:25 pm**

confocaloid wrote: November 20th, 2023, 8:07 am If you do not want to consider Catagolue as an evidence that some name is already in use, then the longer forms are better since they are already in use.
Excluding this discussion, I did not find uses of shorter versions of these on the forum.

Did you find any uses of the longer forms on the forums, though?

A database entry on Mark Niemiec's site definitely counts as useful information as to whether the "cis" or "trans" prefix is more reasonable, but it doesn't really mean that those names are currently or were ever "in use". Many of the names in Niemiec's database were also fairly arbitrary inventions, and have never gotten into common use.

In those cases, if there's a good strong analogy that will help produce a better shorter term, as there seems to be here with "ship-tie" and "boat-tie", then it's worth considering that option rather than dismissing it out of hand. We're not ever going to come anywhere near having Catagolue terms always match up with Niemiec-database terms, so that's not a strong point in favor of insisting on the longer forms in this case.

The only "in use" terms that I'm finding on a quick search are the shorter forms, "cis-snake-tie" and "trans-snake-tie" -- in use on the LifeWiki, that is, but accidentally applied to the wrong objects.

Posted: **November 20th, 2023, 2:42 pm**

dvgrn wrote: November 20th, 2023, 2:25 pm
confocaloid wrote: November 20th, 2023, 8:07 am If you do not want to consider Catagolue as an evidence that some name is already in use, then the longer forms are better since they are already in use.
Excluding this discussion, I did not find uses of shorter versions of these on the forum.
Did you find any uses of the longer forms on the forums, though?
[...]

Here is one:

calcyman wrote: April 21st, 2019, 12:20 pm [...]
Line 3286 contains the cheapest true xs16 (the 3-glider bipond), and line 3287 contains the most expensive pseudo xs16 (the 27-glider block on snake-tie-snake). This is perfectly consistent with the OEIS count of 3286 strict still lifes of 16 bits.
[...]

Edit: removed eater tie eater

Posted: **November 20th, 2023, 3:16 pm**

Looking at the archives, the relevant part of the synthesis-costs/xs16 tabulation at the time was this:

synthesis-costs-2019-05-15/xs16 wrote:

Code: Select all

...
"xs16_c4o0e96z321","100000000000000004"
"xs16_h7ob96z11","100000000000000004"
"xs16_j1u0696z11","100000000000000004"
"xs16_j1u06acz11","100000000000000004"
"xs16_g88m996z1221","100000000000000003"
"xs16_kc3qp3z11","27"
"xs16_1784czw321e8","25"
"xs16_8e12kozdb","24"
"xs16_ml12koz56","23"
"xs16_3213objo","18"
...

Here xs16_g88m996z1221 is the bi-pond, and xs16_kc3qp3z11 is this still life:

Code: Select all

x = 6, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
2bob2o$2b2obo$2o$bob2o$o2b2o$2o!

Posted: **November 21st, 2023, 12:21 pm**

confocaloid wrote: November 20th, 2023, 2:42 pm Here is one:

calcyman wrote: April 21st, 2019, 12:20 pm [...]
Line 3286 contains the cheapest true xs16 (the 3-glider bipond), and line 3287 contains the most expensive pseudo xs16 (the 27-glider block on snake-tie-snake). This is perfectly consistent with the OEIS count of 3286 strict still lifes of 16 bits.
[...]

Hm, that might be enough to vaguely counterbalance the two questionable "current uses" of the short form on the LifeWiki.

However, that "block on snake-tie-snake" usage is technically not a use of either of the longer terms "cis snake tie snake" or "trans snake tie snake". We have a suggestion to use the existing shorter terms "cis-snake-tie" and "trans-snake-tie" instead. The analogy to "ship-tie" and "boat-tie" looks vaguely valid to me. There isn't any such thing as "cis-ship-tie", "trans-boat-tie", etc., though, so the analogy is indeed kind of vague.

The only objection so far to this suggestion cited a lack of uses on the forums of the short forms, and said that the long forms are "already in use". But are the long forms really "already in use"? If neither short forms nor long forms are in use, that's not a compelling reason to use one or the other. Is there another reason that I missed, why we aren't just keeping the existing LifeWiki terms but swapping their meanings?

The "snake-tie-snake" example usage quoted above contains hyphens. The current move proposals (moving to the longer form) don't use hyphens, but the short forms do use hyphens. That might be another vague push in the direction of the short form, but again it's not any kind of strong evidence.

... And then there's snake bridge snake, which is kind of "the other possible trans-snake-tie". Luckily, though, the bridge and tie articles seem to be as clear and consistent as we're likely to get on "snake bridge snake" being a reasonable name for that arrangement.

So it looks to me like just swapping the meanings of the two current short-form terms "cis-snake-tie" and "trans-snake-tie" will get us to a pretty reasonable place. There's still definitely some un-fixable arbitrariness to these name choices, though, so honestly I think that whatever is decided here will be fine, as long as parallel changes are made on the LifeWiki and on Catagolue.

Posted: **December 10th, 2023, 5:30 am**

confocaloid wrote: November 20th, 2023, 3:16 pm Looking at the archives, the relevant part of the synthesis-costs/xs16 tabulation at the time was this:
synthesis-costs-2019-05-15/xs16 wrote:
Code: Select all
...
Here xs16_g88m996z1221 is the bi-pond, and xs16_kc3qp3z11 is this still life:
Code: Select all
x = 6, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
2bob2o$2b2obo$2o$bob2o$o2b2o$2o!

As a strange coincidence, a 5-glider synthesis for block on snake-tie-snake (xs16_kc3qp3z11) (down from 11 gliders) was submitted to Catagolue in a RLE which also contained the new 5-glider synthesis of amphisbaena (xs11_321eg8o):

Code: Select all

#C https://gitlab.com/hatsya/open-source/catagolue/-/jobs/5719096314
#C https://gitlab.com/hatsya/open-source/catagolue/-/jobs/5719096314/raw
#C 2nd processed RLE, xs11_321eg8o: 8th column, xs16_kc3qp3z11: 27th column
x = 0, y = 0, rule = B3/S23
16bo1097bo$15bo1098bobo2182bo$15b3o382bo600bo112b2o401bo985bo796bo
$401bo107bo492bo197bobo313bo283bo700bobo492bo117bo183b3o12bo86bo$
2bo213bo83bo98b3o105b2o93bo306bobo88b3o198b2o94bobo213bo2b3o183bo
3bobo89bobo401bo100bo8bobo96bobo88b2o107bo4bo380b2o114bo199bobo85b
2o108bo290bo$obo113bo85bo6bo5bo85b2o205b2o93bo106bo198b2o190bobo
97bo96b2o112bo98b2o87bo6bobo90bobo3b2o91b2o100bobo204bobo92bo100bo
7b2o97b2o196b2o3b2o380b2o115b3o82bo14bobo97b2o85b2o108bo292bo111bo
$b2o111b2o87bo5bobo3b3o82b2o109bo189b3o6bo99bobo96bo100bo191b2o
111bo82bo113bobo85bo11b2o87b2o4b2o92b2o4bo8bo185b2o98bo105b2o91b3o
98b3o8bo98bo197b2o3b2o84bo111bobo96bo286b2o12b2o295b3o101bobo86bob
o95b3o110bo$111bo3b2o84b3o5b2o200bobo88bobo103b2o100b2o90bo6bobo
290bo111bo197b2o84bobo99b2o6bo7bobo96bo186bo10bo89b2o98bo5bo103bo
191bo293bobo4bo3bobo90bo9b2o92bo3bo286b2o14bo193bobo196bobo4b2o88b
2o5bo202b3o$102bo6b2o300b2o5bo84b2o3bo100b2o3b3o99bo86b2o4b2o4bo
398b3o282b2o115b2o97b3o94bobo97bo89b2o4bobo6bo86bo108bobo190bo6bo
90bo96bobo96b2o2bobo3b2o89bobo3bobo4bo91bo4b3o199bo200b2o92b2o6bob
o95bobo85bobo2b2o6bo88bo4b2o4bo186bo$100bobo7b2o196bo108bo85bo3bo
6b2o98bo85bobo4b2o7bobo83b2o9b2o88bo206bo198b2o89bo216bo194b2o98b
3o93b2o5b2o85b3o108b2o189b3o5bo89bobo97b2o101b2o4bo90b2o3b2o92bobo
2b3o195bo7bo200b2o94bo6b2o84bobo2bobo4b2o87b2o3bo101b2o2bo95bo92b
2o$101b2o204b2o108b3o87b3o4bobo98bo85b2o3bobo7b2o96b2o85bobo204b2o
198b2o91b2o99b2o105b2o202bo195bo6b2o97bo296b3o88b2o97bo205bo93b2o
201bo6b3o200bo101bo85b2o2b2o6bo87bo110b3o92bo92b2o$15bo185b2o100bo
3bobo204bo93b2o91bo6bo193b2o103bo101b2o199bo89b2o4b2o95b2o103b2o
497bo6bo194bo99bo197bobo292bo200b3o397bo4bo192bobo105b3o$13b2o89b
2o96b2o99b2o110bo192bobo199bo96bo7b2o84b2o4b2o3b2o391b2o95bo107bo
95b2o294b2o101b2o7b3o190b2o99b2o96b2o99b2o207bo99bo84b3o105b2o90bo
3b3o200b2o292b2o101bo102b3o$14b2o89b2o94bo100bobo109b2o192bo201b2o
3bo90b2o7bobo82bobo3bobo2b2o189b3o100b3o99bo297b2o204b2o89bobo5b2o
94b2o109bo90b2o98bobo96b2o6bo92bo101b3o4b2o96b2o93b2o3b2o86bo3bo6b
2o93bobo89b2o2bo201b2o200b2o91bo103b2o7b3o92bo$9b3o92bo8b2o299bobo
392bobo3bobo88bobo6bo86bo10bo97b3o90bo102bo94b2o14bo288bo202b2o90b
o6b2o195bo3b3o3b2o288bo7b2o194bo6bobo90bo4bobo92bobo2bobo84bo3b2o
5b2o94bo90bobo3bo96bo105bo194b2o3bobo93b3o97b2o8bo88bo4bo3b2o$9bo
103bobo192b3o5b2o187b2o204b3o101b2o294bo91bo3b2o97bo94bobo13b2o
192b3o98b2o91b2o12bo83b2o7bo98bo97b2o95b2o2bo5bobo295bobo194bo5bo
91b2o99bo95bobo6bo202b2o83b2o298b2o4bo97bo103bo4bo87b2o7bobo$10bo
102bo91b3o100bo7bobo81b2o103bobo104b2o97bo400bo94bobo89bo103bo13bo
bo87bo103bo100bobo89bobo4bo6b2o84b2o9b2o192bobo93bobo3bo97bo4b3o
93b2o197b3o197bobo208b2o90b2o103b2o83bobo206b3o91bo100bo103b2o91bo
bo7bo$207bo101bo6bo82bobo103bo105b2o99bo197b3o294bo6b2o83b2o17b2o
187b2o103bo99bo93bo3b2o6bobo82bo10b2o193bo198b2o4bo95bobo196bo410b
obo89bobo104bo188b2o101bo298bobo$206bo194bo211bo296bo106b2o195bobo
81bobo16b2o187bobo301bobo103bo391bobo4bo94bo101bo97bo409bo91bo206b
2o86b2o103bo$911bo104b2o196bo104bo1191b2o805b2o89bo$6b3o1009bo91b
2o1399bobo806bo$6bo1102b2o$7bo1103bo82$9bo$bobo4bo6bobo$2b2o4b3o4b
2o$2bo13bo4$15bo$15bobo$15b2o2$11b3o$11bo$12bo!
# Filtering with radius 5
# Engulfing y5co4y4742zwgx48ez123zyc351
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs11_bdzx352...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 0247y28okzggxkc8y2e24z211
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs17_j9egozdd...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 2c6y0456y06c2z8gszy02a6
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs12_39cz653...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 8acy1e84x654zkc8zy04kc
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs19_39u0o4oz643w1...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 562zwgcow634zy46a2y1e24
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs15_330okcw253...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 247y7654zzy04kczy2g8o0235zy41
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs16_3pmzciic...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing g0gw265z031w654y0e24zxs48
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs18_256069ic0ca4...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing gggxko8y0654z021x84szxkc8
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs14_253032qk8...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing y1456z84sy3e84xc68zy2217
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs11_321eg8o...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 217x6c2zw532084sy046a
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs15_0oka23z4aa4...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing y1456z247wgy34cazy1231gggzy412
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs20_4a960696z6952...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing yc265z48ex4ocw4cazz2a6
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs12_696zy46246...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing y1562zx8aczy2a64zy9634z217
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs18_2596066069a4...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing x247y4654zy8okgzggy4s48z211
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs20_696064132qr...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 0ac4y5265zy0g0ozy111086czz436
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs14_0kc0ca52z32...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 562zy5654zx4ocz2a6wocg
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs17_3lk213z3443...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing y6361zya4cazgggwkc8y6712z021
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs14_brzrq...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 163zkc8wgozy1101we24zwa64
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs15_66wbrzw311...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 456za64y1634zy7ck4zw217
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs13_3jgz3kp...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 0562z8ggy14caz1hggzw21zy9351
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs13_0g0g853zop1...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 163y4okgzy5go8zw532y21046a
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs16_oid1e8z66...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 562xco4y08okze24y08ck
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs13_j96zdd...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing gkox361zx4cay2654zy3712
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs19_6996066z6952...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 2c6x456w361zx84szyb351
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs13_2lmzc96...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 247y58okzac4wco4zy8s48
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs19_69mgm96z321...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 0h63y0g8z2230gco0111zw84s
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs17_gwbrzdl91...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 247z048ezy1532y1c68zy6c68
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs10_bdzw252...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 163z163y0ko8w742zy08ogzy01
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs16_kc3qp3z11...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 247w48ex6c2zy7ck4y0s48
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs22_352sgz330fgkc...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 4ocx163zxogx86cxs48zw101
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs16_3lk213z1243...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 0gy3742w6c2z213w6a2wck4
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs16_gbb8ozdd...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing y9361zy0247zx532zxgcozgggz021
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs14_rq23z66...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 0247wgz088o123xck4z88pz01
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs16_35ac0ciic...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 562y8361zwgcowck4zyf235
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs12_5b8owcc...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing yd361zw456w361zzy946az217
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs14_gj3zldz11...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 163zy08ogwocgwocgzy01zy1a64
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs18_66069ic0cic...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing g0g0456z031y0163w361zx4kc
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs13_gg069a4z65...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 562z0ko8x654zwkc8x6c2
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs15_0g0brz8ld...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing w163x4cawokgz163088ozy11
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs12_33032qk...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing gkow163wgo8zy22a6x1zya6a2
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs12_0mk213z121...
#     ...success.
# Engulfing 8acy2742zw42eza64xocg
# processing src=xs0_0, dst=xs16_2552zg8o652z01...
#     ...success.
# Filtering with radius 8
# Filtering with radius 13
# Filtering with radius 21

ConwayLife.com

Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki

Re: Still life nomenclature on LifeWiki