ConwayLife.com

As usual, there was a lot of discussion recently about the Sandbox being polluted by threads not relating to CA and what should be done to prevent it. If nothing is done, then I'm worried that the pollution will cause mass clutter, the Sandbox to be more toxic, and repulsion of newcomers from these forums. I will let the voters decide what should be done to the Sandbox. You may select more than one option and voting will end 1 month from now.

With all due respect, I don't think it's really our place to be making polls like this... these options seem like they're just things you came up with and foisted on the community without discussing anything first, whereas ideally we would need a clear consensus among both moderators and a large subset of normal users on what the options for voting would be if we were to have any kind of vote on this, which again would need moderator consensus and support from a large subset of normal users as something that would even be a good idea in the first place.

Honestly, these threads are themselves in so many ways a reflection of the "sandbox mentality" that has happened to this forum recently in my opinion: When I first joined, creating a new thread was something people would usually only do in rare circumstances, and it was often a big deal. When the Sandbox opened up people initially followed the spirit of that unwritten rule — which was that people should only create new threads if they thought the subject of the new thread would be important or sufficiently interesting to people and not fit somewhere else, or if they thought it fulfilled a useful role that other people would also see a need for. A lot of the early threads in the Sandbox that have still been active recently (like Absolutely Useless Patterns and even Random Posts) did follow that even if they don't superficially seem like it: they were places that served to attract the "noise" away from the diminishing signal-to-noise ratio elsewhere in the forums. I do partly disagree with Random Posts being locked, since I feel like it has the potential to continue to divert noisy posts away from other more "signal"-rich threads in the Sandbox and elsewhere... That aside, the problem has always been that new users have been more likely to post new topics than established users, since unless they've been lurking for a while they haven't learned that piece of forum etiquette — and once they encountered the Sandbox, where they didn't need to worry about moderators merging, locking, or deleting redundant, pointless, or unnecessary threads, and where established users were more lax about diverting them to what would have been the appropriate threads, the "don't make new threads unless you have a good reason" unwritten rule essentially disappeared in the Sandbox — and then started to erode outside it. (I don't think the Sandbox is 100% responsible for the shift elsewhere, since I could definitely pin part of the blame on the structure of the OCA forum not being well-suited to exploring thousands of different INT rules at once rather than tens to hundreds of outer-totalistic, generations, etc. rules at once like before INT rules came into the vogue, or simply on the somewhat increasing activity and popularity of the forums over the past few years... But I think it's clear it's been a large part of the cause.)

Whatever the cause, what's happened is that people don't think as carefully about whether their new thread — or by extension whatever they have to say in their new thread, or even in normal posts (even though thread-making etiquette is a large driver of the change in mentality imo it's not the only area where the changes have happened) — is worthwhile, appropriate to the forums, or will be welcomed by the community. At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon at the ripe old age of twenty, it seems like users now seem to think they can ask people to do whatever they want to, direct people's attention to whatever they want to, and take authority over whatever they want to, without being questioned in it, especially when starting new threads, and it's diminishing the quality of the forums greatly... I hope it doesn't feel like I'm calling you out, I understand you want to help, but I don't think polls like this help anything — in fact, if it was up to me I would disallow user-created polls entirely, but again obviously that would be something requiring moderator and to a lesser extent community consensus to implement. I do think some of the proposals you give deserve consideration — I like that you identify people creating new threads as the problem, but I'm not sure it's a question of whether they're CA related or not, because a lot of the same problems have happened intermittently in the OCA forum and even Patterns to a lesser extent with the proliferation of minimally distinct conduit threads that seem to exist just because someone wanted an excuse to make a new thread. I definitely feel like somehow the standards for making threads need to change but I don't know if any of the rules changes you propose would do that, or if it's a rules change rather than simply community awareness of the problem that would be the best solution... Anyway, those are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Reporting this as it is essentially a copy of my poll.

{censored} wrote: March 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Reporting this as it is essentially a copy of my poll.

Please just stop reporting posts — you clearly don't have a good enough sense of what needs mod attention and what will just anger mods further. I don't think you even recognize that excessive reports are a lot of what's caused this fiasco in the first place. If you want the Sandbox not to be closed, reporting posts for reasons that are less than 100% unambiguously and critically necessary is not going to help you at all — in fact, you'd most likely be better off never reporting another post in your life than keeping doing things like this. I'd ordinarily never suggest something like that, and maybe I'm exaggerating somewhat, but the excessive reports for sure need to stop.

Okay.
I want to be a moderator one day and I must learn to report well.

{censored} wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 2:15 am Okay.
I want to be a moderator one day and I must learn to report well.

No because that’s why you aren’t a moderator.

yujh wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:19 am

{censored} wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 2:15 am Okay.
I want to be a moderator one day and I must learn to report well.

No because that’s why you aren’t a moderator.

And this is why you are not a moderator.
Think yourself what this could mean.

Hello!I am {censored}. I like doing {censored},{censored} and sometimes also {censored}. I live in {censored}.
Every day things are heating up more and more.
We must fight for the future of The Sandbox together!
Also,{censored}.

(smaller words here for bigger space) sorry are you joking or joking?!

{censored} wrote: March 22nd, 2021, 6:54 am And this is why you are not a moderator.
Think yourself what this could mean.

You're being a bit rude right here( and lets stop all arguments related to sandbox from now on! )
I wouldn't like to be a moderator because it would be quite a hard job.
Being a moderator is not to allow anyting to happen, but to stop too much off-topic posts to exist.
I do have some spamming posts, so I think i'm not able to be a moderator.(I now highly suspect that you are BokaBB-related or probably BokaBB-like. lol

Sandbox is making too much noise but there's also good things inside, like e.g. https://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4959 is quite appreciated. This is not chatroom(but is spamming in chatrooms welcomed?)

It was originally intended to offload some of the less constructive threads and posts from the patterns forum, as well as giving new users a place to introduce themselves and get a feel for the forums

I quite agree with swoke. The sandbo is overused these days, but it does not offload quite a lot of useless posts in patterns or OCA, which makes me quitemad about the forum these days.

I found other people quite mad these days, and i actually don't want to see a lot of bans in order to encourage newcommers to join. But if we don't, the situation here is really out of control.My own suggestion would be giving a bit stricter laws to members here who has joined for a month, but I'm not quite sure about that.

Stop sandbox discussions as good examples have been set!!!Thank you dvgrn for tiding a lot these days!

100% agree with prao. Esp. that really this choice isn't up to us. Also, regarding the proposed options, here are my two cents:

(1) Moderate the Sandbox more strictly with help from new moderators:

This creates more work for the moderators. A lot of the recent sandbox drama has been because excessive amounts of work for the moderators. I am not a mod and cannot speak for the mod team, but I doubt that they would relish this proposal.

(2) Lock/delete the Sandbox altogether

Locking or otherwise archiving would probably be the best solution. It's easier for the mods than the other options.

(3) Impose a post limit, whether by number or number in a given time (e.g. once per day)

I don't know if this is possible, but number/time would be the way to go of the two. If this cannot be automated however it should not be done because once again it would create too much work for the moderators.

(4) Lock threads and ban accounts that have nothing to do with CA and/or have a low signal-to-noise ratio (e.g. Lying Thread)

This is a lot of work for moderators and banning accounts seems a bit extreme.

(5) Add a rule where you need permission from a moderator to create a thread not relating to CA

Again, too much work for the mods. Imagine the flood of PM's they'd get if this happens.

A better option would be to just get the community to stop creating low signal-to-noise posts and threads as much as possible. This would make work lighter for the moderators; sadly, I doubt that this will ever happen. With the amount of users that are at least somewhat active, getting everyone to embrace a high signal-to-noise presence on the forums would be less than practical. Nonetheless, I suggest that all the readers of this post ought to try to avoid creating excess work for the moderators.

(Note: I'm not fully informed on the situation because I haven't devoted my time to determining what's going on the forums, and I skimmed quite a few paragraphs relevant to this situation, so forgive me if there's something I missed that makes this post stupid)

I need to bump this because of the following thing Sokwe said to me in a dm on Discord:

Sokwe wrote: I believe it was a mistake to be so tolerant. I spent too much time cleaning up rule-violating posts in off topic game threads, and for what purpose? What did these threads add to a forum about cellular automata. I've come to the conclusion that those sorts of games should be played elsewhere. The forums are for discussing CA.

Edit: Also:

hotcrystal0 wrote: I’m not sure why, but it seems like five years ago, off-topic threads were both more common and totally fine with moderators.

Perhaps it’s because of Random Posts, what happened to it, and after that moderators realized every off-topic discussion is likely inherently problematic like Random Posts?

Maybe it’s because moderators used to be more tolerant, but now, they’re stricter and the forums are even more reluctantly moderated.

Your poll is missing an important option:

"Leave it alone."

hotcrystal0 wrote: February 7th, 2025, 4:38 pm I need to bump this because of the following thing Sokwe said to me in a dm on Discord:

Do not post or discuss direct or private messages publicly without the permission of the sender.

I believe I've said it many times now: there are other places on the internet to have off-topic discussion. More off-topic discussion means more work for the moderators. Determining what is "good" off-topic discussion and what is "bad" off-topic discussion means more work for the moderators. Having meta-discussions about off-topic discussions is more work for the moderators.

I consider mathematics, computer science, and programming to be on-topic in the sandbox. I have no inherent problem with other topics. They just aren't appropriate for the forums.

Sokwe wrote: February 7th, 2025, 6:38 pm I believe I've said it many times now: there are other places on the internet to have off-topic discussion. More off-topic discussion means more work for the moderators. Determining what is "good" off-topic discussion and what is "bad" off-topic discussion means more work for the moderators. Having meta-discussions about off-topic discussions is more work for the moderators.

I'm guessing another reason why off-topic discussion is discouraged is because the forums are only reluctantly moderated, because the moderators have lives.

How hard would it be to set up another phpBB forum with LifeViewer? I'm guessing that one of the reasons why these games keep showing up on this site is because of the convenience that LifeViewer gives. If another phpBB forum with LifeViewer could be set up, we could take all our games there.

wwei47 wrote: February 7th, 2025, 6:46 pm How hard would it be to set up another phpBB forum with LifeViewer? I'm guessing that one of the reasons why these games keep showing up on this site is because of the convenience that LifeViewer gives. If another phpBB forum with LifeViewer could be set up, we could take all our games there.

Off-topic threads virtually never use LifeViewer. Why would they? LifeViewer is for viewing and simulating CA, so almost all posts using it are on-topic.

Sokwe wrote: February 7th, 2025, 6:51 pm

wwei47 wrote: February 7th, 2025, 6:46 pm How hard would it be to set up another phpBB forum with LifeViewer? I'm guessing that one of the reasons why these games keep showing up on this site is because of the convenience that LifeViewer gives. If another phpBB forum with LifeViewer could be set up, we could take all our games there.

Off-topic threads virtually never use LifeViewer. Why would they? LifeViewer is for viewing and simulating CA, so almost all posts using it are on-topic.

I am referring to games like "cgol rpg".

wwei47 wrote: February 7th, 2025, 6:52 pm

Sokwe wrote: February 7th, 2025, 6:51 pm Off-topic threads virtually never use LifeViewer. Why would they? LifeViewer is for viewing and simulating CA, so almost all posts using it are on-topic.

I am referring to games like "cgol rpg".

As long as they are CA-related they should be fine. Notice that only one such thread was locked, and that's because the original poster refused to add rules to limit the scope in any way.

*thinks for a while*
I have a proposed solution: what if we made another Discord server specifically for the kinds of off-topic games that used to exist in the sandbox?

wwei47 wrote: February 7th, 2025, 7:04 pm *thinks for a while*
I have a proposed solution: what if we made another Discord server specifically for the kinds of off-topic games that used to exist in the sandbox?

What if we make a channel (forum channel) on the Conwaylife Discord for them?

KittyTac wrote: February 7th, 2025, 10:32 pm What if we make a channel (forum channel) on the Conwaylife Discord for them?

Or consider the Sandbox completely unrelated to the rest of the forums?

The "cgol rpg"-type games are CA-related, but nevertheless often problematic, including problematic because of many large patterns and few explanations/descriptions.
Someone posts a large pattern, then someone posts (what appears to be) a minor modification of that pattern, then someone posts (what appears to be) a minor modification of that modification, and so on.

From the viewpoint of storing all the data, this amounts to a somewhat remarkable amount of duplicated and/or unexplained content. (But maybe it's not really my headache to count how many megabytes are spent on the server?)

From the viewpoint of a forum user, such games amount to an activity that doesn't appear to contribute much (if anything) to Life/CA-related knowledge, and doesn't appear to contribute much if anything to understanding of Life and other cellular automata.
(Yes there are some patterns, lots of patterns indeed, but what are they? What is going on? Does this evolve into some interesting contribution? Apparently no.)

Further, people who are participating in such games can miss the primary idea of these forums (having interesting constructive Life/CA-related discussions).
Merely posting lots of large patterns does not make an interesting constructive Life/CA-related discussion.
(Arguably, it doesn't make any discussion at all.)

This is more or less why I consider such "cgol rpg"-type games problematic. Those games are too much noisy activity, without long-term positive effects, and with long-term negative effects. Yes, they're formally CA-related, but that doesn't really help.

b-engine wrote: February 7th, 2025, 10:34 pm [...] Or consider the Sandbox completely unrelated to the rest of the forums?

Then, roughly speaking, where to go and complain if something very very bad happens in the Sandbox?
If it is meant to be considered completely unrelated, then maybe it should be on a different unrelated website, outside these forums.

confocaloid wrote: February 7th, 2025, 10:53 pm Those games are too much noisy activity, without long-term positive effects, and with long-term negative effects.

No, the threads don't have negative effects at all..They are just for entertainment.

unname4798 wrote: February 8th, 2025, 1:55 am

confocaloid wrote: February 7th, 2025, 10:53 pm Those games are too much noisy activity, without long-term positive effects, and with long-term negative effects.

No, the threads don't have negative effects at all..They are just for entertainment.

Here is one negative effect of the Sandbox, very objective and very visible:
search.php?search_id=newposts
The new posts log is cluttered by Sandbox activity, with low or no long-term contribution to understanding or knowledge of Life/CA.

Other negative effects of the "chatty games" (also very objective and very visible) were already mentioned earlier in the related discussions, including earlier in this forum thread. I would suggest to read the earlier discussions to anyone interested in brainstorming the situation.

confocaloid wrote: February 8th, 2025, 2:07 am Here is one negative effect of the Sandbox, very objective and very visible:
search.php?search_id=newposts
The new posts log is cluttered by Sandbox activity, with low or no long-term contribution to understanding or knowledge of Life/CA.

It is not clutttered anyway.

hkoenig wrote: February 7th, 2025, 6:08 pm Your poll is missing an important option:

"Leave it alone."

The poll is problematic, but for reasons other than absence of "leave it alone".

I think "leaving the sandbox alone" is not really an option. At least not really an option, if the aim is keeping the forums sufficiently welcoming/friendly to those people who are genuinely interested in Life/CA (and to those people who are actually willing to devote time and efforts to gain better understanding and contribute something that has good chances of being interesting to others).

Instead of the sandbox diverting noise away from other forums, the sandbox supports the noise (which then propagates to other forums). Maybe it was intended to solve a problem but currently it causes the problem to become worse.