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MathAndCode wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:12 pm I know that humans turn recyclable amino acids into ammonia then turn the ammonia into urea. Bacteria probably do the same thing.

So it's done then? I mean them using nitrogen containing compounds.

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:19 pmSo it's done then? I mean them using nitrogen containing compounds.

I think that we already agreed that at least some creatures would.

MathAndCode wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:20 pm I think that we already agreed that at least some creatures would.

I mean have we figured out how life uses them?

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:24 pmI mean have we figured out how life uses them?

We haven't completely. I'm sure that there will be more reactions.

MathAndCode wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:27 pm We haven't completely. I'm sure that there will be more reactions.

Do you have any suggestions?

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:35 pmDo you have any suggestions?

Let's suppose that they evolve to store hydrogen cyanide as nitrile groups for later retrieval. Maybe this can lead to photosynthesis upstream of the hydrothermal vents.

MathAndCode wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:37 pm Let's suppose that they evolve to store hydrogen cyanide as nitrile groups for later retrieval. Maybe this can lead to photosynthesis upstream of the hydrothermal vents.

Why would they do that in the first place? Also, how would this lead to photosynthesis?

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:42 pmWhy would they do that in the first place?

in case hydrogen cyanide levels decreased temporarily

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:42 pmAlso, how would this lead to photosynthesis?

Conjugated compounds are necessary for photosynthesis.

MathAndCode wrote: March 5th, 2021, 5:46 pm Conjugated compounds are necessary for photosynthesis.

Ok. what happens next?

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 6th, 2021, 1:55 pmOk. what happens next?

Actually, I just checked, and the organisms upstream of the hydrothermal vents use isocyanic acid and formamide but not hydrogen cyanide. Should we find a energy-creating reaction that consumes hydrogen cyanide for them to use or see what we can do with isocyanic acid and formamide?

MathAndCode wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:11 pm Actually, I just checked, and the organisms upstream of the hydrothermal vents use isocyanic acid and formamide but not hydrogen cyanide.

Where did we say that?

MathAndCode wrote: March 6th, 2021, 2:11 pm Should we find a energy-creating reaction that consumes hydrogen cyanide for them to use or see what we can do with isocyanic acid and formamide?

I say the latter.

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 7th, 2021, 12:06 pmWhere did we say that?

in this post

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 7th, 2021, 12:06 pmI say the latter.

Isocyanate groups are also reactive. Perhaps the creatures can use those.

MathAndCode wrote: March 7th, 2021, 3:00 pm Isocyanate groups are also reactive. Perhaps the creatures can use those.

Wikipedia says that they can be toxic, but I doubt that would be a serious problem for them. They can also be flammable.

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:32 pmWikipedia says that they can be toxic, but I doubt that would be a serious problem for them.

Yes, the organisms can just evolve to not be adversely affected by them.

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:32 pmThey can also be flammable.

That means that they can be used as a source of energy.

MathAndCode wrote: March 8th, 2021, 4:05 pm That means that they can be used as a source of energy.

Wikipedia wrote:Methyl isocyanate (MIC) is highly flammable. MDI and TDI are much less flammable.

Let's use one of the latter two. I don't want any potential creatures evolving from the unicellular organisms to be flammable.

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 9th, 2021, 11:40 amLet's use one of the latter two. I don't want any potential creatures evolving from the unicellular organisms to be flammable.

Earth-based organisms contain glucose, which is presumably flammable based on how much energy is released by oxidizing it, but they aren't prone to spontaneous combustion.

MathAndCode wrote: March 9th, 2021, 12:11 pm Earth-based organisms contain glucose, which is presumably flammable based on how much energy is released by oxidizing it, but they aren't prone to spontaneous combustion.

Doesn't flammable mean prone to spontaneous combustion (or needing only a tiny spark to ignite)?

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 9th, 2021, 12:14 pmDoesn't flammable mean prone to spontaneous combustion (or needing only a tiny spark to ignite)?

I think that spontaneous combustion from the inside is the only thing that we will need to worry about as the organisms now are all surrounded by water.

MathAndCode wrote: March 9th, 2021, 12:16 pm I think that spontaneous combustion from the inside is the only thing that we will need to worry about as the organisms now are all surrounded by water.

I should have specified: any potential land-dwelling organism. There wouldn't be any pressure to not be spontaneously combustible in water, but if we find that they are so on land, it would be too late for us to change their chemistry.

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 9th, 2021, 12:18 pmI should have specified: any potential land-dwelling organism. There wouldn't be any pressure to not be spontaneously combustible in water, but if we find that they are so on land, it would be too late for us to change their chemistry.

I don't think that that will be much of a concern. Life on Earth's land has managed to deal with fires.

MathAndCode wrote: March 9th, 2021, 12:43 pm I don't think that that will be much of a concern. Life on Earth's land has managed to deal with fires.

Ok, I'll go with what you say. So should we figure out which specific isocyanate compound they use or not?

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 9th, 2021, 12:49 pmOk, I'll go with what you say. So should we figure out which specific isocyanate compound they use or not?

We don't need to do that, but we should figure out the general characteristics (e.g. whether or not the carbon backbone will be saturated, conjugated, or unsaturated but unconjugated).

MathAndCode wrote: March 9th, 2021, 12:51 pm We don't need to do that, but we should figure out the general characteristics (e.g. whether or not the carbon backbone will be saturated, conjugated, or unsaturated but unconjugated).

I don't know enough chemistry to know what any of those properties would cause. Could you elaborate a bit?

Schiaparelliorbust wrote: March 9th, 2021, 1:07 pmI don't know enough chemistry to know what any of those properties would cause. Could you elaborate a bit?

Conjugation would allow photosynthesis. Unsaturation is necessary for conjugation and would alter the chemistry even without conjugation.

MathAndCode wrote: March 9th, 2021, 1:10 pm Conjugation would allow photosynthesis. Unsaturation is necessary for conjugation and would alter the chemistry even without conjugation.

I don't think we need photosynthesis now. Would unsaturation change it's reactiveness/energy output?