Forums for Conway's Game of Life
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So should we create the first multicellular organisms now (or something related like initial partial coordination) or something else?MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 4:07 pm Yes. For example, the organisms should still be to use transition metals inside to form coordination complexes.
We should figure out how biochemistry will respond to the increased levels of oxygen first.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 11th, 2021, 4:12 pmSo should we create the first multicellular organisms now (or something related like initial partial coordination) or something else?
A few compounds will not be nearly as abundant, so many clades using them could either go extinct or be forced to start using newer compounds.MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 4:13 pm We should figure out how biochemistry will respond to the increased levels of oxygen first.
Yes, but they could also evolve to make those compounds themselves. However, this requires energy, so organisms that aren't next to a hydrothermal vent will be forced to either evolve photosynthesis or get nutrients from other organisms.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 11th, 2021, 4:16 pmA few compounds will not be nearly as abundant, so many clades using them could either go extinct or be forced to start using newer compounds.
Perhaps when they're trying to eat each other they evolve endosymbiosis with the photosynthetic partner becoming a new organelle, like on Earth.MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 4:21 pm Yes, but they could also evolve to make those compounds themselves. However, this requires energy, so organisms that aren't next to a hydrothermal vent will be forced to either evolve photosynthesis or get nutrients from other organisms.
That's possible, but I don't think that it's likely because a predator unable to digest its prey would not survive, and a predator able to digest its prey would kill the engulfed organisms.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 11th, 2021, 4:25 pmPerhaps when they're trying to eat each other they evolve endosymbiosis with the photosynthetic partner becoming a new organelle, like on Earth.
What do you suggest would happen in response to the increased oxygen levels then?MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 5:07 pm That's possible, but I don't think that it's likely because a predator unable to digest its prey would not survive, and a predator able to digest its prey would kill the engulfed organisms.
There are sulfate-reducing organisms near the hydrothermal vents that use an electron transport chain. It could be adapted to use oxygen as the final electron acceptor.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 11th, 2021, 5:12 pmWhat do you suggest would happen in response to the increased oxygen levels then?
What would that cause? Also, photosynthesizers will definitely switch to entirely using CO₂.MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 5:18 pm There are sulfate-reducing organisms near the hydrothermal vents that use an electron transport chain. It could be adapted to use oxygen as the final electron acceptor.
It would allow them to get energy using dioxygen.
Yes, but that won't happen until carbon monoxide has been depleted.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 11th, 2021, 5:25 pmWhat would that cause? Also, photosynthesizers will definitely switch to entirely using CO₂.
Hasn't that already happened (or will happen relatively quickly)?MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 6:35 pm Yes, but that won't happen until carbon monoxide has been depleted.
I don't think that there should be a gap of at least 100 million years where nothing happens, and we haven't discussed what will happen after photosynthesis arises but before carbon monoxide has been completely depleted.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 11th, 2021, 6:41 pmHasn't that already happened (or will happen relatively quickly)?
Is that how long it takes for CO to get depleted? Also, what do you propose happens during that period?MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 6:54 pm I don't think that there should be a gap of at least 100 million years where nothing happens, and we haven't discussed what will happen after photosynthesis arises but before carbon monoxide has been completely depleted.
It will take at least that long for carbon monoxide to be depleted. It will likely take longer, but I haven't figured out the exact value yet.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 11th, 2021, 7:02 pmIs that how long it takes for CO to get depleted? Also, what do you propose happens during that period?
May I ask you where you got that value?MathAndCode wrote: February 11th, 2021, 7:05 pm It will take at least that long for carbon monoxide to be depleted. It will likely take longer, but I haven't figured out the exact value yet.
I took a rough estimate of the minimum fraction of the early atmosphere that is or would be depleted before carbon monoxide, then I multiplied it by the estimated length of the atmospheric change.
Good. In the time it takes carbon monoxide to deplete, clades that can use (also) use carbon monoxide for photosynthesis will diversify, ag least relative to the ones that can't. Will using CO₂ cause any other changes (such as being more energy efficient)?MathAndCode wrote: February 12th, 2021, 11:05 am I took a rough estimate of the minimum fraction of the early atmosphere that is or would be depleted before carbon monoxide, then I multiplied it by the estimated length of the atmospheric change.
Didn't the photosynthetic organisms evolve to use carbon monoxide before carbon dioxide?Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 12th, 2021, 11:20 amGood. In the time it takes carbon monoxide to deplete, clades that can use (also) use carbon monoxide for photosynthesis will diversify, ag least relative to the ones that can't. Will using CO₂ cause any other changes (such as being more energy efficient)?
Yes, they did, but I think that some clades will start using CO₂, especially due to decreasing CO levels.MathAndCode wrote: February 12th, 2021, 11:45 am Didn't the photosynthetic organisms evolve to use carbon monoxide before carbon dioxide?
Yes, and those clades will likely be more successful, especially once the oxygen starts to deplete carbon monoxide.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 12th, 2021, 11:52 amYes, they did, but I think that some clades will start using CO₂, especially due to decreasing CO levels.
What else might happen?MathAndCode wrote: February 12th, 2021, 11:56 am Yes, and those clades will likely be more successful, especially once the oxygen starts to deplete carbon monoxide.
The organisms that adapt their electron transport chain to accept oxygen as well as sulfate will likely be the ancestors of the first successful heterotrophs.
They weren't successful before? Also, do we even have any heterotrophs at all?MathAndCode wrote: February 12th, 2021, 12:18 pm The organisms that adapt their electron transport chain to accept oxygen as well as sulfate will likely be the ancestors of the first successful heterotrophs.
There haven't been any widespread heterotrophs so far. I'm using widespread as a requirement for counting as successful.Schiaparelliorbust wrote: February 12th, 2021, 12:22 pmThey weren't successful before? Also, do we even have any heterotrophs at all?
Do you think we need some sort of chemical infrastructure for the digestion of other organisms?MathAndCode wrote: February 12th, 2021, 12:36 pm There haven't been any widespread heterotrophs so far. I'm using widespread as a requirement for counting as successful.