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(27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

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Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 6th, 2016, 3:31 pm
by biggiemac
The corresponding technology in the Waterbear was just dropped off in passing by a trio of climbers interacting. (And the third only existed in this case to make sure there were no stray gliders).

Code: Select all

x = 146, y = 214, rule = B3/S23
13$87bo$85b2o$86b2o8$141bo$141bobo$119bo21b2o$119bobo$119b2o29$61bo$
61bobo$61b2o8$116bobo$116b2o$94bobo20bo$94b2o$95bo29$36bobo$36b2o$37bo
7$92bo$91bo$70bo20b3o$69bo$69b3o22$16bo$15b3o$14bo2b2o$18bo$18b2o$20bo
$17b4o$17b2o10$5bo62bo$5bobo58b2o$5b2o39bo20b2o$44b2o$45b2o7$34bo$34b
2o$33bo2bo$34bobo$33bo2bo$33bo2bo$33bobo$34b3o13$32bo$31bobo$31bobo$
32bo14bo$46b3o$45b2o2bo2$49b2o$49b2o$48bo2bo$47b3o2$41bobo$42b2o$42bo
7$36bo$35bo$14bo12bo7b3o$13bo12bobo$13b3o10bobo$27bo!
This is probably going to be build from an incremental slow synthesis via rakes from the track. We have a couple decent starting points just with the tracks Nico already posted, since they use a rather remarkable reaction that travels far to the right before becoming a TL+glider, and there are a few different ways to add a new climber to the glider trail to get interesting debris. My favorite (despite being probably useless) is this, which has an internal MWSS collision. It would be useful if it were a period tripler (because of the x3 helix) but instead it is a quadrupler.

Code: Select all

x = 323, y = 670, rule = B3/S23
322bo$320b2o$309bo11b2o$307b2o$308b2o8$285bo$283b2o$272bo11b2o$270b2o$
271b2o29$303bo$301b2o$290bo11b2o$288b2o$289b2o8$266bo$264b2o$253bo11b
2o$251b2o$252b2o29$284bo$282b2o$271bo11b2o$269b2o$270b2o8$247bo$245b2o
$234bo11b2o$232b2o$233b2o29$265bo$263b2o$252bo11b2o$250b2o$251b2o8$
228bo$226b2o$215bo11b2o$213b2o$214b2o29$246bo$244b2o$233bo11b2o$231b2o
$232b2o8$209bo$207b2o$196bo11b2o$194b2o$195b2o29$227bo$225b2o$214bo11b
2o$212b2o$213b2o8$190bo$188b2o$177bo11b2o$175b2o$176b2o29$208bo$206b2o
$195bo11b2o$193b2o$194b2o8$171bo$169b2o$158bo11b2o$156b2o$157b2o29$
189bo$187b2o$176bo11b2o$174b2o$175b2o8$152bo$150b2o$139bo11b2o$137b2o$
138b2o29$170bo$168b2o$157bo11b2o$155b2o$156b2o8$133bo$131b2o$120bo11b
2o$118b2o$119b2o29$151bo$149b2o$138bo11b2o$136b2o$137b2o8$114bo$112b2o
$101bo11b2o$99b2o$100b2o29$132bo$130b2o$119bo11b2o$117b2o$118b2o8$95bo
$93b2o$82bo11b2o$80b2o$81b2o29$113bo$111b2o$100bo11b2o$98b2o$99b2o8$
76bo$74b2o$63bo11b2o$61b2o$62b2o29$94bo$92b2o$81bo11b2o$79b2o13b3o$80b
2o13b3o$94bo3bo$93b2o2b2o$59bo34b2o$58b3o21bo12b2o$58bob2o18b2ob2o11b
2o$60b2o18b2o16bo$60b3o16bobo3bo11b2o$45bo10bobobo$44b3o10b2o25bo$43bo
2b2o10bo22b3o$43b2o36b2o16b2o$43b2o19b2o20b2o11b2o$63bo2bo$48bo15bobo
18bobo$48bobo13bo2bo17b2o$50bo14b2o23bo$48bo2bo36b2o$49bobo25bo11b2o$
51bo23b2o$65b2o9b2o$65b2o2$51b2o$51b2o4$53bo$51b2o$40bo11b2o43bobo$38b
2o52b3ob2o2bo$39b2o48bo4b4obo$79b3o6bob2o2b2o$81bo5bo3bo$77bobobo5bo2b
2o$77b2o8b2o3b2o$88bo4bo$88bo3bo$90bo4$51bo$51b2o$50bo2bo$53b2o$52bo
14$71bo$69b2o$58bo11b2o19bo$56b2o33bo$57b2o32bo2$87b3o3b3o2$91bo$91bo$
91bo2$34bo$32b2o44bo$21bo11b2o42bo$19b2o56b3o$20b2o13$90bo$75b2o13bo$
75bob2o11bo$77b2o$75b2o9b3o3b3o$73b2o$90bo$73bobo14bo$74bo15bo8$52bo$
50b2o$39bo11b2o$37b2o45bo$38b2o44b2o$86bo$66b2o17b3o$65b3o2b2o11bob3o$
66bobob2o2b2o5bo5bo$67b2obo3b2o6bo4bo$69b2o$85bo3bo$15bo73bo$13b2o74bo
$2bo11b2o$2o83b3o3b3o$b2o$89bo$89bo$89bo!
Rephasing the climber gives many other options, including one which cleanly deletes the TL (used in Nico's forerake). We should be able to find some reasonably good starting point for the slow synthesis. It can be bidirectional if that turns out easier, just using forerakes and backrakes.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 6th, 2016, 4:01 pm
by muzik
Nice to see how the progress just picked up so fast after that discovery


Now, if only we could reduce the problem in the (13,1)c/31 down to a bite-size chunk like that...

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 6th, 2016, 4:16 pm
by biggiemac
There are still tons of roadblocks here, don't get ahead of yourself :P But wildmyron's search gave a much-needed spark back to this project.

It might be worth looking into clusters of tracks like the first one Nico posted where a rake can be built cleanly, even if that track set doesn't support the clean burning reaction, just because of how kind-of-useless the burning reaction is for rephasing. Any cluster that can copy itself precisely will make a suitable construction arm. The "31-2 track" in the Waterbear could copy itself up to 2n horizontal shifts of the tracks, which were inconsequential to rake reactions. Here, since the reactions are all spark+spark, we need the exact horizontal separation to be able to reuse it. We should add some one-time turners/splitters to the eater+hive to allow the first burner to create a pair or trio of tracks.
muzik wrote:Now, if only we could reduce the problem in the (13,1)c/31 down to a bite-size chunk like that...
I wrote:If someone (you?) can find a way to run some B Heptominos on the track really messily, such that the mess has spatial period at least (208,16), which is 16 times (13,1), then we can move forward.
In the 13131 thread, I wrote:As a proof of concept for the dirty option, here's a x11 natural multiplier (very dirty, 2 gliders output every 11 cycles). If I find anything over x16 I think it would warrant making a helix at that period.

Code: Select all

x = 329, y = 829, rule = B3/S23
o$b2o$2o19$8bo$6bobo$7b2o19$13bobo$14b2o$14bo18$21bo$22bo$20b3o19$27bo
$28b2o$27b2o19$35bo$33bobo$34b2o19$40bobo$41b2o$41bo18$48bo$49bo$47b3o
19$54bo$55b2o$54b2o19$62bo$60bobo$61b2o19$67bobo$68b2o$68bo18$75bo$76b
o$74b3o19$81bo$82b2o$81b2o19$89bo$87bobo$88b2o19$94bobo$95b2o$95bo18$
102bo$103bo$101b3o4$322bo$321bobo$321b2o3b2o$325bo2bo$326b2o9$321bo$
320bobo$108bo211b2o3b2o$109b2o213bo2bo$108b2o215b2o9$320bo$319bobo$
319b2o3b2o$323bo2bo$324b2o6$116bo$114bobo$115b2o$319bo$318bobo$318b2o
3b2o$322bo2bo$206bo9bo106b2o2$206bo9bo$206bo9bo2$206bo9bo$206bo9bo2$
206bo9bo$206bo9bo101bo$192bo6bo117bobo$193bo4bo7bo9bo100b2o3b2o$194bo
2bo8bo9bo104bo2bo$322b2o$121bobo71bo10bo9bo$122b2o70bo2bo8bo9bo$122bo
70bo4bo$192bo6bo6bo9bo5$317bo$316bobo$316b2o3b2o$320bo2bo$321b2o8$129b
o$130bo185bo$128b3o184bobo$315b2o3b2o$319bo2bo$320b2o9$315bo$314bobo$
314b2o3b2o$318bo2bo$319b2o3$135bo$136b2o$135b2o4$314bo$313bobo$313b2o
3b2o$317bo2bo$318b2o9$313bo$312bobo$143bo168b2o3b2o$141bobo172bo2bo$
142b2o173b2o9$312bo$311bobo$311b2o3b2o$315bo2bo$316b2o6$148bobo$149b2o
$149bo$311bo$310bobo$310b2o3b2o$314bo2bo$315b2o9$310bo$309bobo$309b2o
3b2o$313bo2bo$156bo157b2o$157bo$155b3o7$309bo$308bobo$308b2o3b2o$312bo
2bo$313b2o8$162bo$163b2o143bo$162b2o143bobo$307b2o3b2o$311bo2bo$312b2o
9$307bo$306bobo$306b2o3b2o$310bo2bo$311b2o3$170bo$168bobo$169b2o4$306b
o$305bobo$305b2o3b2o$309bo2bo$310b2o9$305bo$304bobo$175bobo126b2o3b2o$
176b2o130bo2bo$176bo132b2o9$304bo$303bobo$303b2o3b2o$307bo2bo$308b2o5$
183bo$184bo$182b3o2$303bo$302bobo$302b2o3b2o$306bo2bo$307b2o9$302bo$
301bobo$301b2o3b2o$305bo2bo$189bo116b2o$190b2o$189b2o7$301bo$300bobo$
300b2o3b2o$304bo2bo$305b2o8$197bo$195bobo102bo$196b2o101bobo$299b2o3b
2o$303bo2bo$304b2o9$299bo$298bobo$298b2o3b2o$302bo2bo$303b2o3$202bobo$
203b2o$203bo4$298bo$297bobo$297b2o3b2o$301bo2bo$302b2o9$297bo$210bo85b
obo$211bo84b2o3b2o$209b3o88bo2bo$301b2o9$296bo$295bobo$295b2o3b2o$299b
o2bo$300b2o5$216bo$217b2o$216b2o2$295bo$294bobo$294b2o3b2o$298bo2bo$
299b2o9$294bo$293bobo$293b2o3b2o$297bo2bo$224bo73b2o$222bobo$223b2o7$
293bo$292bobo$292b2o3b2o$296bo2bo$297b2o8$229bobo$230b2o60bo$230bo60bo
bo$291b2o3b2o$295bo2bo$296b2o9$291bo$290bobo$290b2o3b2o$294bo2bo$295b
2o2$237bo$238bo$236b3o5$290bo$289bobo$289b2o3b2o$293bo2bo$294b2o9$289b
o$243bo44bobo$244b2o42b2o3b2o$243b2o47bo2bo$293b2o9$288bo$287bobo$287b
2o3b2o$291bo2bo$292b2o5$251bo$249bobo$250b2o2$287bo$286bobo$286b2o3b2o
$290bo2bo$291b2o9$286bo$285bobo$285b2o3b2o$289bo2bo$256bobo31b2o$257b
2o$257bo7$285bo$284bobo$284b2o3b2o$288bo2bo$289b2o7$264bo$265bo$263b3o
18bo$283bobo$283b2o3b2o$287bo2bo$288b2o9$283bo$282bobo$282b2o3b2o$286b
o2bo$287b2o!
This is the smallest bite-size chunk I can put out there, I think.

As for multiples of 7, that coincidence comes from pulling numbers from a small sample size and not a real phenomenon.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 6th, 2016, 4:19 pm
by muzik
Is there some thing with the number 7 though? (23,5)c/79 and (27,1)c/72 are 28c/79 and 72, respectively, and 28 is a multiple of 7.

Same with (13,1)c/31, 14 being a multiple of 7.

(34,7)c/156 doesn't seem to follow this rule though.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 6th, 2016, 4:50 pm
by Sokwe
muzik wrote:Is there some thing with the number 7 though?
No, this is just the strong law of small numbers at work.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 7th, 2016, 12:40 am
by wildmyron
biggiemac wrote:Thank you! Excellent finds, now we have frozen tracks!

We still have the difficult task of finding a minimal set of tracks capable of creating these seeds, but with this we have a solution to the rephasing problem.
biggiemac wrote:There are still tons of roadblocks here, don't get ahead of yourself :P But wildmyron's search gave a much-needed spark back to this project.
Very glad the results are useful. Is it worthwhile to explore this search space further to reduce the difficulty of finding the minimal set of tracks to create the seed? In particular are there specific criteria to optimise for beyond "something that results from debris of interacting climbers"? I used JLS for the search and as such there were no constraints on the SL constellation other than within the blue area, and the search progressed from near the active Herschel outwards. Only a fraction of the allowed area was explored before the two solutions above were found, so I'm sure there are more possibilities out there. Knowing these solutions exist, something much more efficient could be run but that's not something I'm particularly good at designing.
biggiemac wrote:It might be worth looking into clusters of tracks like the first one Nico posted where a rake can be built cleanly, even if that track set doesn't support the clean burning reaction, just because of how kind-of-useless the burning reaction is for rephasing. Any cluster that can copy itself precisely will make a suitable construction arm. The "31-2 track" in the Waterbear could copy itself up to 2n horizontal shifts of the tracks, which were inconsequential to rake reactions. Here, since the reactions are all spark+spark, we need the exact horizontal separation to be able to reuse it. We should add some one-time turners/splitters to the eater+hive to allow the first burner to create a pair or trio of tracks.
I'm afraid I don't understand the way these self supporting ships work well enough to be able to translate this into requirements for the reactions to be used. In particular, how would the placement of the OTT mentioned be determined? I guess that depends on the construction of the tracks which will be used as a construction arm.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 7th, 2016, 3:59 am
by muzik
So what exactly are the current roadblocks in this ship?

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 7th, 2016, 6:30 am
by biggiemac
@wildmyron Yes, unfortunately it is kind of a two-step problem with both steps requiring info on the other. We should optimize the frozen track so that it builds a construction-ready cluster, and we should optimize the construction cluster so that it can cheaply build rakes and the frozen track. Acceptable solution pairs may differ wildly.

The 8-track cluster is a starting point but I strongly doubt it is optimal. One would need to put a lot of extra junk behind the constellation to coordinate 8 synchronized tracks. I can look into the universal capabilities of the 3-track rake but without rephasing our number of lanes is limited. For starters, just placing OTTs and splitters to manipulate the gliders that come out of the first burner, so that the frozen track can be converted precisely to Nico's 3-track rake by a single climber, would be a nice achievement.

@muzik See above

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 9th, 2016, 6:07 am
by wildmyron
Elsewhere,
biggiemac wrote:I should be more clear now that progress has been made: the blue box may be extended in any direction, and the interaction may be a few generations earlier. Namely, the block you added is in a perfectly reasonable zone. I expected the blue box to be the place something had to be for there to be a chance to get an H out, but since that search turned out fruitful, we can definitely widen the search space to try to find more options.
In light of this, I wound back the incoming H by 4 gen and widened the search area. The number of solutions is now moderately larger (I think there's about 2 dozen in total) but I want to post the most promising just to check I haven't strayed too far. In particular is the time of first interaction still OK? The first fuse is two boats and a hive and is relatively clean. The second is a barge, hive and a block, but in addition to leaving behind a HF and TL it captures the herschel's FNG. Presumably this rules it out of contention as the glider is required to run the adjacent track?

Code: Select all

x = 84, y = 130, rule = LifeHistory
38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$14.2A22.F35.A$14.A.A21.F34.A.A3.2A$15.2A4.A16.F
33.A.A3.A2.A$20.A.A15.F34.A5.2A$10.2A8.A.A15.F$9.A.A9.A16.F30.2A$9.2A
27.F30.2A$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F
$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$13.2A23.F34.A$13.A.A22.F33.A
.A3.2A$14.2A4.A17.F32.A.A3.A2.A$19.A.A16.F33.A5.2A$9.2A8.A.A16.F$8.A.
A9.A17.F29.2A$8.2A28.F29.2A$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$
38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$12.2A24.F
33.A$12.A.A23.F32.A.A3.2A$13.2A4.A18.F31.A.A3.A2.A$18.A.A17.F32.A5.2A
$8.2A8.A.A17.F$7.A.A9.A18.F28.2A$7.2A29.F28.2A$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$
38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F
$38.F$38.F$11.2A25.F32.A$11.A.A24.F31.A.A3.2A$12.2A4.A19.F30.A.A3.A2.
A$17.A.A18.F31.A5.2A$7.2A8.A.A18.F$6.A.A9.A19.F27.2A$6.2A30.F27.2A$
38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$38.F$8.3D27.F29.3D$9.D28.F30.D$9.
3D26.F30.3D$38.F$38.F$24B14.F21.24B$24B14.F21.24B$24B14.F21.24B$24B
14.F21.24B$24B14.F21.24B$24B14.F21.24B$24B14.F21.24B$10B2A12B14.F21.
10BA13B$10BABA11B14.F21.9BABA3B2A7B$11B2A4BA6B14.F21.8BABA3BA2BA6B$
16BABA5B14.F21.9BA5B2A7B$6B2A2B5.BABA5B14.F21.10B5.9B$5BABAB3.A3.BA6B
14.F21.5B2A2B3.A3.8B$5B2AB3.3A3.7B14.F21.5B2AB3.3A3.7B$7B3.A2.A4.6B
14.F21.7B3.A2.A4.6B$9.3A2.2A22.F30.3A2.2A$10.A2.3A22.F31.A2.3A$11.2A
2.2A21.F32.2A2.2A$14.3A21.F35.3A$11.4A.A21.F32.4A.A$11.2A2.2A21.F32.
2A2.2A$14.2A22.F35.2A$38.F$38.F$38.F!

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 9th, 2016, 9:08 am
by BlinkerSpawn
I like the look of this:

Code: Select all

x = 61, y = 128, rule = LifeHistory
13.2A$13.A.A$14.2A4.A$19.A.A30.2A$9.2A8.A.A30.A.A$8.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$8.
2A48.A.A$48.2A8.A.A$47.A.A9.A$4.2A41.2A$4.2A2$43.2A$43.2A14$12.2A$12.
A.A$13.2A4.A$18.A.A30.2A$8.2A8.A.A30.A.A$7.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$7.2A48.A.A$
47.2A8.A.A$46.A.A9.A$3.2A41.2A$3.2A2$42.2A$42.2A14$11.2A$11.A.A$12.2A
4.A$17.A.A30.2A$7.2A8.A.A30.A.A$6.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$6.2A48.A.A$46.2A8.A.
A$45.A.A9.A$2.2A41.2A$2.2A2$41.2A$41.2A14$10.2A$10.A.A$11.2A4.A$16.A.
A30.2A$6.2A8.A.A30.A.A$5.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$5.2A48.A.A$45.2A8.A.A$44.A.A
9.A$.2A41.2A$.2A2$40.2A$40.2A4$47.B$46.3C$46.BCB$45.2B3C$45.5B$45.6B
5$9.2A$9.A.A$10.2A4.A$15.A.A$5.2A8.A.A$4.A.A9.A$4.2A3$2A$2A4$7.A$6.3C
$6.BDBA$5.2B2CD$5.3BAB$5.6B!
(Of course, the left track can be moved any distance SW and/or advanced any even number of generations)

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 10th, 2016, 1:32 am
by biggiemac
@wildmyron Yes, the glider not surviving makes the second combination unworkable, though the first is great. What we ultimately need is some group of still lives that can be "thawed" at will into a full construction track, capable of creating said stills. The search area can be as large as necessary to achieve that goal. I think as long as the velocity is correct and a single glider comes out (even in a wrong direction), the reaction should be considered. Because any escaping glider can then collide with a corresponding group of OTT/splitters to produce all the tracks needed.

@BlinkerSpawn Cleanliness as a goal is really low-priority. If we are able to make a frozen construction track, then the track can make all the rakes necessary to clean up the debris, and with the helix, debris, and tracks all moving further from one another every period it is not urgent.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 10th, 2016, 4:14 am
by muzik
While it would be really inefficient, couldn't we construct something like a 27,1c72 puffer, whose debris is destroyed by a nearby 27,1c/72 rake?

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 10th, 2016, 5:03 am
by biggiemac
Well the purpose of making a construction cluster is to be able to make (27,1)c/72 rakes where they need to be within the ship. They build everything needed to create the helix/fanouts/whatever sustains the front end, and they clean debris (and themselves). While it would be possible to make a rake and a puffer to work together, both would merely be slight changes in the instruction tape with respect to a clean spaceship. If we are that far, we should avoid making and sustaining a second helix, just to provide the cleanup take.

If I were to do that with (23,5)c/79 technology, it would look like two waterbears, one modified only to leave behind blocks or something and the other sending out gliders but otherwise clean.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 10th, 2016, 6:32 am
by muzik
I figured.

But isn't the waterbear already technically that, to some extent? There are some bits that leave behind blocks, and these blocks are destroyed by gliders

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 10th, 2016, 8:47 am
by BlinkerSpawn
biggiemac wrote:@BlinkerSpawn Cleanliness as a goal is really low-priority. If we are able to make a frozen construction track, then the track can make all the rakes necessary to clean up the debris, and with the helix, debris, and tracks all moving further from one another every period it is not urgent.
I suppose so, but without the block things get really bad with that particular reaction.

Code: Select all

x = 59, y = 182, rule = LifeHistory
11.2A$11.A.A$12.2A4.A$17.A.A30.2A$7.2A8.A.A30.A.A$6.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$6.
2A48.A.A$46.2A8.A.A$45.A.A9.A$45.2A18$10.2A$10.A.A$11.2A4.A$16.A.A30.
2A$6.2A8.A.A30.A.A$5.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$5.2A48.A.A$45.2A8.A.A$44.A.A9.A$
44.2A18$9.2A$9.A.A$10.2A4.A$15.A.A30.2A$5.2A8.A.A30.A.A$4.A.A9.A32.2A
4.A$4.2A48.A.A$44.2A8.A.A$43.A.A9.A$43.2A18$8.2A$8.A.A$9.2A4.A$14.A.A
30.2A$4.2A8.A.A30.A.A$3.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$3.2A48.A.A$43.2A8.A.A$42.A.A9.
A$42.2A18$7.2A$7.A.A$8.2A4.A$13.A.A30.2A$3.2A8.A.A30.A.A$2.A.A9.A32.
2A4.A$2.2A48.A.A$42.2A8.A.A$41.A.A9.A$41.2A18$6.2A$6.A.A$7.2A4.A$12.A
.A30.2A$2.2A8.A.A30.A.A$.A.A9.A32.2A4.A$.2A48.A.A$41.2A8.A.A$40.A.A9.
A$40.2A8$43.B$42.3C$42.BCB$41.2B3C$41.5B$41.6B5$5.2A$5.A.A$6.2A4.A$
11.A.A$.2A8.A.A$A.A9.A$2A8$3.A$2.3C$2.BDBA$.2B2CD$.3BAB$.6B!
Also, isn't the forward glider that comes out of that important?

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 11th, 2016, 9:24 pm
by biggiemac
Progress:

Code: Select all

x = 595, y = 1797, rule = B3/S23
542bobo$542b2o$543bo16$551bobo$551b2o$552bo3$594bo$592b2o$571bo21b2o$
571bobo$571b2o18$523bobo$523b2o$330b2o3b2o187bo$329bobo2bo2bo$329bo5b
2o$328b2o7$322b2o$322b2o5$532bobo$532b2o$533bo3$575bo$573b2o$552bo21b
2o$552bobo$552b2o2$329b2o3b2o$328bobo2bo2bo$328bo5b2o$327b2o7$321b2o$
321b2o5$504bobo$504b2o$505bo9$328b2o3b2o$327bobo2bo2bo$327bo5b2o$326b
2o4$513bobo$513b2o$514bo$320b2o$320b2o$556bo$554b2o$533bo21b2o$533bobo
$533b2o11$327b2o3b2o$326bobo2bo2bo$326bo5b2o$325b2o4$485bobo$485b2o$
486bo$319b2o$319b2o14$494bobo$494b2o$326b2o3b2o162bo$325bobo2bo2bo$
325bo5b2o$324b2o211bo$535b2o$514bo21b2o$514bobo$514b2o3$318b2o$318b2o
14$466bobo$466b2o$325b2o3b2o135bo$324bobo2bo2bo$324bo5b2o$323b2o7$317b
2o$317b2o5$475bobo$475b2o$476bo3$518bo$516b2o$495bo21b2o$495bobo$495b
2o2$324b2o3b2o$323bobo2bo2bo$323bo5b2o$322b2o7$316b2o$316b2o5$447bobo$
447b2o$448bo9$323b2o3b2o$322bobo2bo2bo$322bo5b2o$321b2o4$456bobo$456b
2o$457bo$315b2o$315b2o$499bo$497b2o$476bo21b2o$476bobo$476b2o11$322b2o
3b2o$321bobo2bo2bo$321bo5b2o$320b2o4$428bobo$428b2o$429bo$314b2o$314b
2o14$437bobo$437b2o$321b2o3b2o110bo$320bobo2bo2bo$320bo5b2o$319b2o159b
o$478b2o$457bo21b2o$457bobo$457b2o3$313b2o$313b2o14$409bobo$409b2o$
320b2o3b2o83bo$319bobo2bo2bo$319bo5b2o$318b2o7$312b2o$312b2o5$418bobo$
418b2o$419bo3$461bo$459b2o$438bo21b2o$438bobo$438b2o2$319b2o3b2o$318bo
bo2bo2bo$318bo5b2o$317b2o7$311b2o$311b2o5$390bobo$390b2o$391bo9$318b2o
3b2o$317bobo2bo2bo$317bo5b2o$316b2o4$399bobo$399b2o$400bo$310b2o$310b
2o$442bo$440b2o$419bo21b2o$419bobo$419b2o11$317b2o3b2o$316bobo2bo2bo$
316bo5b2o$315b2o4$371bobo$371b2o$372bo$309b2o$309b2o14$380bobo$380b2o$
316b2o3b2o58bo$315bobo2bo2bo$315bo5b2o$314b2o107bo$421b2o$400bo21b2o$
400bobo$400b2o3$308b2o$308b2o14$352bobo$352b2o$315b2o3b2o31bo$314bobo
2bo2bo$314bo5b2o$313b2o7$307b2o$307b2o5$361bobo$361b2o$362bo3$404bo$
402b2o$381bo21b2o$381bobo$381b2o2$314b2o3b2o$313bobo2bo2bo$313bo5b2o$
312b2o7$306b2o$306b2o4$314bo$313b3o17bobo$316bo16b2o$314b2o18bo$315bo
9$313b2o$313b2o4$317b2o$311bo5b2o23bobo$310b3o29b2o$309b2ob2o29bo$313b
2o$313b3o3bo$313b2o4bo65bo$309b2ob2o5bo63b2o$310b3o49bo21b2o$311bo50bo
bo$362b2o13$301bo$301bobo$301b2o3$314bobo$314b2o$315bo10$312b2o$311bob
o$312bo4$323bobo$323b2o$324bo3$366bo$364b2o$343bo21b2o$343bobo$343b2o
12$311b2o$282b2o26bobo$282b2o14bo12bo$282bobo12b3o$283b2o2b2o7b2o2bo$
289bo6b5o$282bo2b2obo6bo2b2o$282bo13b2o$283bo4bo$285bo2b2o$286bob2o13b
o$287b2o14b2o2$304b2o$304bo$289b2o$289b2o2$304b2o$304b2o2$278bo$278bob
o$278b2o$304bobo$304b2o$291bobo11bo$291b2o17b2o$292bo16bobo$310bo36bo$
345b2o$324bo21b2o$324bobo$324b2o3$307bobo$307b2o$307b2o$306bo15$309b2o
$308bobo$309bo10$259bo$259bobo$259b2o$285bobo$285b2o$272bobo11bo$272b
2o$273bo$328bo$326b2o$305bo21b2o$305bobo$305b2o3$308b2o$307bobo$308bo
25$307b2o$306bobo$307bo$240bo$240bobo$240b2o$266bobo$266b2o$253bobo11b
o$253b2o$254bo$309bo$307b2o$286bo21b2o$286bobo$286b2o12$306b2o$305bobo
$306bo19$221bo49b3o$221bobo46bo2bo$221b2o47bo3bo$247bobo19b2obobo$247b
2o20b2ob2o$234bobo11bo21b3o$234b2o69b2o$235bo68bobo$289b2o14bo$288bo2b
o$277b3o9bobo$276bo3bo9b2o3bo$275bo5bo8b4o2bo$274bo3bo3bo$274bo2bobo2b
o6b2o3bo$274bo3bo3bo12b2o$275bo5bo$276bo3bo12bo$277b3o14b3o$278b2o$
278b2o$278b2o$296b2o$296b2o5$286bo$284b2o$263bo21b2o$263bobo$263b2o$
304b2o$303bobo$304bo7$263bo$262b3o$261b2o2bo$202bo58bob4o$202bobo56bo
4bo$202b2o57bo2b2o10bobo$228bobo32b2o11bo2bo$228b2o45bo3b2o$215bobo11b
o29bo15bo$215b2o42bobo$216bo42b2o14bo2b3o$275b2o$277b3o$277b3o5$303b2o
$302bobo$303bo$270bo$270bo2$256bobo17b2o$251bo4bobo11b2o4b3o8bo$251b3o
b2obo2b2o7b2o3b2ob2o6b3o$251b2ob2o5b2o11b2o2bobo4b5o$256b2o17b2o4b2o2b
3ob2o$253b4o19b4obo4bo2bo$255bo22b4obo2b3o$284bo$283bo5$246b3o$246bobo
$246bo2bo$247b3o$247b3o$245bo2bo$248bo$245bo$302b2o$247bo17bo35bobo$
246bo17b3o35bo$183bo62b2o16bob2o$183bobo67bo12b2o$183b2o67bobo11b3o$
209bobo40bobo7bobobo$209b2o42bo9b2o$196bobo11bo53bo$196b2o52bo6b3o$
197bo50b3o19b2o$252b2o6bo8bo2bo$253bo2bo13bobo$253b2o4bo10bo2bo$255bo
2bo12b2o$251b2ob2o$252bo2$271b2o$271b2o7$259bo$257b2o42b2o$236bo21b2o
40bobo$236bobo62bo$236b2o18$164bo$164bobo$164b2o$190bobo$190b2o$177bob
o11bo$177b2o121b2o$178bo120bobo$300bo15$240bo$238b2o$217bo21b2o$217bob
o$217b2o6$299b2o$298bobo$299bo10$145bo$145bobo$145b2o$171bobo$171b2o$
158bobo11bo$158b2o$159bo8$298b2o$297bobo$298bo2$137b2o30b3o$136b3o30bo
2bo$136bo2bo29bo2bo$136b2ob2o14b2o11b4o$136b2ob2o14b2o11b2o51bo$135b2o
b2o17bo9bo51b2o$136bo18b3o10bo29b2o20b2o$137b3o14bobo11bo29b2o$138bo
16b2o41bobo$154bo44b2o2b2o$154bo50bo$152bo45bo2b2obo$198bo$199bo4bo$
201bo2b2o$202bob2o$136b2o65b2o14b3o$136b2o80bo2bo$137bo40b2o38bo4bo$
137b3o25bo12b2o37b2ob2obo$148b2o14bob2o10bo2bo23b2o10b2obo2bo$135b2o9b
o2b2o2b2o13bo9bo26b2o12b4o$135bo2b2o5bo3b2ob2o9b2ob2ob2o7b2o2bo37b3o$
135bo2bo7b3o2b2o10b2o2bo2bo5bo4b2o114b2o$136b2o2b2o9b2o10b2obo3bo46bo
78bobo$140bo2bo6bo3bo10b2ob2o45b2o80bo$141bo2bo6bobo11b2o27bo21b2o$
142b2o6bobo9b2o30bobo$162b2o30b2o6$170bo$170b2o$169bobo$225b2o$230bobo
$229bo2bo$216b2o14b2o$216b2ob2o7bob4o$220bo7bob4o$187bo29bobo11b2o$
187b2o27bo2bo11bo$186bobo29b3o$122bo95b4o$122bobo94b2o$122b2o$148bobo$
148b2o146b2o$135bobo11bo145bobo$135b2o67bo91bo$136bo67b2o$203bobo7$
221bo$221b2o$220bobo6$198bo$196b2o40bo$175bo21b2o39b2o$175bobo59bobo$
175b2o4$295b2o$294bobo$255bo39bo$255b2o$254bobo7$272bo$272b2o$271bobo$
103bo$103bobo$103b2o$129bobo$129b2o$116bobo11bo$116b2o171bo$117bo171b
2o$288bobo5$294b2o$293bobo$294bo11bo$306b2o$305bobo6$179bo$177b2o144bo
$156bo21b2o143b2o$156bobo163bobo$156b2o6$340bo$340b2o$339bobo5$293b2o$
292bobo$293bo63bo$357b2o$356bobo$84bo$84bobo$84b2o$110bobo$110b2o$97bo
bo11bo$97b2o275bo$98bo275b2o$373bobo7$391bo$391b2o$390bobo2$76b2o30b3o
$75b3o30bo2bo$75bo2bo29bo2bo$75b2ob2o14b2o11b4o181b2o$75b2ob2o14b2o11b
2o51bo130bobo$74b2ob2o17bo9bo51b2o132bo115bo$75bo18b3o10bo29bo21b2o
247b2o$76b3o14bobo11bo29bobo267bobo$77bo16b2o41b2o$93bo$93bo$91bo5$75b
2o$75b2o$76bo40b2o18bo$76b3o25bo12b2o17b3o$87b2o14bob2o10bo2bo14b2o2bo
$74b2o9bo2b2o2b2o13bo9bo17bob4o$74bo2b2o5bo3b2ob2o9b2ob2ob2o7b2o2bo13b
o4bo$74bo2bo7b3o2b2o10b2o2bo2bo5bo4b2o13bo2b2o10bobo$75b2o2b2o9b2o10b
2obo3bo27b2o11bo2bo$79bo2bo6bo3bo10b2ob2o40bo3b2o$80bo2bo6bobo11b2o27b
o15bo$81b2o6bobo9b2o30bobo$101b2o30b2o14bo2b3o$149b2o$151b3o137b2o$
151b3o136bobo$291bo2$109bo$109b2o$108bobo3$144bo$144bo2$128b2ob2o17b2o
$127bo2b3o11b2o4b3o8bo$128bo2b2o2b2o7b2o3b2ob2o6b3o$131b2o2b2o11b2o2bo
bo4b5o$61bo68b3o16b2o4b2o2b3ob2o$61bobo61b2o23b4obo4bo2bo$61b2o89b4obo
2b3o$87bobo68bo$87b2o68bo$74bobo11bo$74b2o$75bo4$290b2o$289bobo$290bo
10$137bo$135b2o$114bo21b2o$114bobo$114b2o11$289b2o$288bobo$289bo5$42bo
$42bobo$42b2o$68bobo$68b2o$55bobo11bo$55b2o$56bo13$288b2o$287bobo$288b
o$118bo$116b2o$95bo21b2o$95bobo$95b2o18$23bo$23bobo$23b2o262b2o$49bobo
234bobo$49b2o236bo$36bobo11bo$36b2o$37bo12$15b2o30b3o$14b3o30bo2bo$14b
o2bo29bo2bo$14b2ob2o14b2o11b4o$14b2ob2o14b2o11b2o51bo$13b2ob2o17bo9bo
51b2o$14bo18b3o10bo29bo21b2o$15b3o14bobo11bo29bobo$16bo16b2o41b2o$32bo
$32bo253b2o$30bo254bobo$286bo3$77bo$14b2o60b3o$14b2o59b2o2bo$15bo40b2o
21b2o$15b3o25bo12b2o18b3ob2o$26b2o14bob2o10bo2bo17bo2b2o$13b2o9bo2b2o
2b2o13bo9bo19b3o$13bo2b2o5bo3b2ob2o9b2ob2ob2o7b2o2bo18b2o$13bo2bo7b3o
2b2o10b2o2bo2bo5bo4b2o18b2o12b3o$14b2o2b2o9b2o10b2obo3bo46bo$18bo2bo6b
o3bo10b2ob2o45b3o$19bo2bo6bobo11b2o27bo$20b2o6bobo9b2o30bobo19bo$40b2o
30b2o18b3o$90b3o$91b2o4$48bo$48b2o$47bobo$285b2o$284bobo$285bo$101bo$
101b2o$75bo8bobo13bob2o$66b2obo4bobo7bobob2o14bo$65b5o15bo3bo3b2o5b2o
2b2o$64bobob2o17bo7b3o6b3o$o63bo4bo26b2o6b2o$obo62bo4b2o23bo8bo$2o67b
2o25b2o$26bobo40bo$26b2o$13bobo11bo$13b2o$14bo11$284b2o$283bobo$284bo
3$76bo$74b2o$53bo21b2o$53bobo$53b2o16$84bobo$85b2o$85bo197b2o$282bobo$
283bo$7bobo$7b2o$8bo18$57bo$55b2o$34bo21b2o$34bobo$34b2o246b2o$281bobo
$282bo14$101bobo$102b2o$102bo9$281b2o$280bobo$281bo12$38bo$36b2o$15bo
21b2o$15bobo$15b2o9$280b2o$279bobo$280bo5$118bobo$119b2o$119bo18$279b
2o$278bobo$279bo3$19bo$17b2o$18b2o18$135bobo$136b2o$136bo141b2o$277bob
o$278bo25$277b2o$276bobo$277bo14$152bobo$153b2o$153bo9$276b2o$275bobo$
276bo25$275b2o$274bobo$275bo5$169bobo$170b2o$170bo18$274b2o$273bobo$
274bo23$186bobo$187b2o$187bo85b2o$272bobo$273bo25$272b2o$271bobo$272bo
14$203bobo$204b2o$204bo9$271b2o$270bobo$271bo25$270b2o$269bobo$270bo5$
220bobo$221b2o$221bo18$269b2o$268bobo$269bo23$237bobo$238b2o$238bo29b
2o$267bobo$268bo25$267b2o$266bobo$267bo14$254bobo$255b2o$255bo9$266b2o
$265bobo$266bo!
What's going on here:

I have improved the construction cluster to 5 tracks and I feel we won't be getting anything better. This 5-track cluster resembles the back arm of the Waterbear. A rake shoots a glider at a rephasing climber pair, and the relative phase of the rake and the climber pair allows the glider to be transmitted, absorbed, or in this case even reflected. The three options correspond to a forerake (top), rephaser (middle), and backrake (bottom). This is just meant to demonstrate that all three are possible, the particular boat-demolishing reaction is irrelevant.

I also have been trying to make sure this arm can be thawed from a frozen set of still lives. The top of this pattern shows a eater + beehive + block being burned to drop the leftmost track into place, leaving a boat behind. The boat would be in the way of the tracks if they were already in phase, so instead they pass through the boat while in the wrong phase, then get rephased to participate in the cluster. This can only be done because the cluster has multiple rephasable pairs in it (1-2, 2-3 and 4-5). Above the boat, only 4-5 are in phase, meaning the stills that place the other four tracks don't have as much freedom to leave debris.

Because of the debris issue I would really like to be able to set multiple tracks at once, ideally the whole cluster, using turners and splitters. Then a single rake from a thawing climber can activate the whole cluster. (Importantly, the activation rake cannot come from the cluster that constructed the turners and splitters, because that removes the entire timing degree of freedom).

Lastly, I want to have standard nomenclature for these tracks, and I am still working on it. What I have so far:

The cluster consists of a rake interacting with a climber. The rake gives us some freedom as to the amount of space between the trio and the pair. In the Waterbear, the rake was SE so delaying interaction 4 generations was equivalent to moving the tracks 2 horizontal cells apart. With this 2-cell transformation irrelevant, the remaining degrees of freedom were parity, phase, and vertical separation. The vertical separation was coprime to the other two, and they together made one big group: C342 (cyclic group, 342 elements). The nomenclature for track separations came from this group.

Here the rake is NE, so by delaying interaction 4 generations we move the tracks 2 cells apart in the SW-NE direction, so timing mod 8 is irrelevant. The remaining degrees of freedom are the glider parity, phase, and lane separation. We only have to consider lanes modulo 27 - 1 = 26. That means (I think) that we are looking at group structure C8xC26, equivalently C2xC104. As a result, we need two values to specify an element if we don't want to remove the structure. I might just refer to separations as 0A-103A and 0B-103B where A vs B depends on whether the gliders have the same shape, and 0-103 depends on some combination of the glider phase and lane difference.

I'll get more serious about nomenclature once I am confident I understand how the group and generators work.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 12th, 2016, 12:02 am
by muzik
Amazing to see how this project rose form the dead and kicked away the roadblocks slowly but surely, one block at a time...

absolutely all thanks to me because of that one post of mine
(okno)

Honestly, it amazes me further that people even have the patience to even think about making these.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 12th, 2016, 4:38 pm
by biggiemac
In the Waterbear thread, Codeholic wrote:Could you maybe elaborate a little bit how you do the arithmetic of periods and offsets, maybe illustrating it with some components labeled with extended LifeHistory states?
Back then I didn't use LifeHistory ever and likely left some people in the dust trying to use my own nomenclature without ever giving a satisfying description of what it meant. Here I will try to be better.

I've decided to go with a C26xC8 name scheme rather than a C2xC104, because while I find the latter a more appealing group it doesn't map as intuitively to the degrees of freedom in the problem.

The names apply to the separation between neighboring tracks, so a cluster of 5 tracks has 4 elements in its name. The degrees of freedom I am using here are the lane separation mod 26 and the phase offset mod 8. Tracks with the same values for these degrees of freedom are capable of the same reactions between forerakes and climbers.

Lane separation is just a a number between 0 and 25, and phase is indicated by a letter A-H. Because I have it ingrained in me that A is 1, we have A-G mapped to 1-7 and H for 0. As such, the 5-cluster can be called an 18E-11H-23G-20G track.

Code: Select all

x = 125, y = 42, rule = LifeHistory
20.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$19.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$18.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B
16.4B$17.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$16.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$15.4B14.BD2B
7.BD2B45.D3B16.4B$14.D3B14.2D2B7.2D2B45.D3B16.DBDB$13.D3B14.2B2D7.2B
2D45.B3D16.B2DB$11.DB3D13.D4B6.D4B44.D4B15.D3BD$11.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B
16.4B$10.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$9.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$8.4B14.4B7.4B
45.4B16.4B$7.4B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$6.A3B14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$5.A3B14.
4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$5.3A14.4B7.4B45.4B16.4B$21.4B7.BA2B11.D.D.3D5.D4.3D.
3D10.4B16.4B$20.4B7.2A2B12.D.D.D.D6.D5.D3.D9.4B16.4B$19.BA2B9.2A13.3D
.3D2.6D3.2D2.2D8.4B3.3D.3D6.4B$18.2A2B27.D3.D6.D3.D5.D7.4B6.D.D.D5.4B
$19.2A28.D3.D5.D4.3D.3D6.4B6.2D.D.D4.4B$76.4B6.D3.D.D3.4B$75.4B7.3D.
3D2.4B$58.4D12.4B16.4B$58.D14.4B16.4B$58.D.2D10.4B11.4D.4B$58.D2.D9.
4B12.D3.4B$58.4D8.4B13.D.2D3B$10.D.3D2.3D12.D.D2.D2.D28.4B14.D.BD2B$
10.D.D.D2.D14.D.D2.D2.D27.4B15.4DB$10.D.3D2.2D13.D.D2.4D26.4B16.4B$
10.D.D.D2.D14.D.D2.D2.D25.4B16.4B$10.D.3D2.3D12.D.D2.D2.D24.4B16.4B$
64.4B16.4B$63.4B16.4B$62.4B16.4B$61.4B16.4B$60.4B16.ABAB$59.A3B17.2AB
$58.A3B19.A$58.3A!
That said, for direct interactions between climbers, the lane separation and timing are strict rather than mod-8/mod-26, so this naming scheme is really only helpful when considering the 23G separation between 3 and 4. I would thus rather call this a 23G track than the whole clunky name, where it is understood that the left of the 23G track is the forerake made from 3 climbers and the right is the rephasing reaction whose spark can absorb, transmit or reflect the glider.

The rephasing reaction is of type 16H, meaning a 23G separation is turned into a 23G + 16H = (23 + 16 - 26 = 13, G + H - H = G) 13G separation. As many rephasings as we try, we will be stuck with an odd number and a G, which is onlyl 1/16 of the space. It is at least fortunate that we have natural forerakes instead of being limited to backrakes though, because if we named things in terms of the backrake degrees of freedom we would be stuck in 1/40 of the space (see my many rants earlier).

The frozen track technology means that a new track can be burned on whatever letter is needed rather than being tied to the timing of its constructor. The lane, however, is fixed. So we will probably need two different recipes for the seed constellation, one of each parity.

Now, this has all so far focused on making sure the UC portion of this ship is as unlimited as it can be, without thinking yet about what it constructs. We ultimately need to synthesize a tightly-packed helix of period-tripled *WSS, many of which are HWSS. The caterpillar synthesis can't be coaxed to work, we can't proceed through intermediate slow salvo because of the angle, and the Waterbear avoided HWSS in its helix. So we still need recipes.

..And fanouts. And a viable tripler, but I'll look into just making that from natural reactions rather than a filter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay, here's an absurd idea. What if we built the spaceship on the "wrong" side of the helix?

Discussion with codeholic in the 13131 thread (which went unresolved) made me realize that there are multiple viable layouts for an oblique ship relative to its helix. The way I built the Waterbear made the most sense for top-down construction, because the tracks, stills and helix were all mutually drifting apart. A similar design would be made possible in this case by finding a really sneaky HWSS recipe that could insert into a partially-completed helix, but that is still elusive.

We could instead have the HWSS-laden helix release a stream of x3 NE gliders which were caught by a second HWSS-free fanout helix at the opposite end of the front, which converted them to the first construction track. The HWSS-free helix could be constructed in Waterbear fashion, and the HWSS-laden helix would have approach angles permitting many more synthesis options. It would look like the caterpillar in that it is surrounded on both sides by helix, and like the Waterbear in that parts are steadily drifting apart/together in large triangles.

But how do large triangles play nicely with a finite width?

Instead of doing resets out of size consideration we would be forced into them to avoid crashing into the HWSS-laden helix. We end up with a very large unknown regarding how much space to give ourselves, which is a degree of freedom in the two-helix approach (good thing) but also leaves us unable to make this a top-down construction (will slow me in particular down).

If the Waterbear were to be constructed this way, for example, it would look something like the following (really really janky) mockup:
G68PQwE.png
G68PQwE.png (42.06 KiB) Viewed 1027 times
If there is
1) a way to release a NE glider stream from the x3 HWSS-laden helix and
2) a HWSS-free helix that turns such a stream into some frozen form of the construction cluster
then we have a front end. I'll get to making some sample frozen clusters so anyone (codeholic??) can have a definite target.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, the track trio supporting the NE forerake is absolutely impermeable by a NW forerake. This means we will only get NW forerakes for left syntheses when performing a reset, probably meaning one left synthesis per big triangle. These are done in parallel with the syntheses to the right though, so it might be a good thing, and resets might be needed quite often anyway.

I don't know enough HWSS syntheses off the top of my head to determine the number of coordinated signals required. If we only use W LWSS, NW G, SW G and still lives, can we get a low-signal-count, repeatable and clean HWSS shooter that can insert the HWSS in yellow here?

Code: Select all

x = 334, y = 248, rule = LifeHistory
197.D.D$197.2D$198.D28$77.2D$77.2D15$8.A$7.3A15.A$7.A.2A13.3A12.A$8.
3A7.A4.2A.A4.3A4.3A$8.3A6.3A3.3A4.A2.A3.2A.A4.3A$8.3A5.2A.A4.2A7.A3.
3A4.A2.A$3A5.2A6.3A10.A3.A4.2A7.A$A2.A12.3A10.A3.A9.A3.A$A16.2A14.A9.
A3.A$A3.A25.A.A14.A$A3.A39.A.A$A$.A.A2$41.A$11.3A13.A12.3A7.A$11.A2.A
11.3A4.3A4.A.2A5.3A$11.A7.3A4.A.2A3.A2.A4.3A4.2A.A$11.A3.A3.A2.A4.3A
3.A7.2A5.3A$11.A3.A3.A7.2A4.A3.A10.3A$11.A7.A3.A9.A3.A10.3A$12.A.A4.A
3.A9.A15.2A$19.A14.A.A$20.A.A4$11.A$10.3A15.A$10.A.2A13.3A12.A287.D2.
D$11.3A7.A4.2A.A4.3A4.3A285.D$11.3A6.3A3.3A4.A2.A3.2A.A4.3A278.D3.D$
11.3A5.2A.A4.2A7.A3.3A4.A2.A278.4D$3.3A5.2A6.3A10.A3.A4.2A7.A$3.A2.A
12.3A10.A3.A9.A3.A$3.A16.2A14.A9.A3.A$3.A3.A25.A.A14.A$3.A3.A39.A.A$
3.A$4.A.A2$44.A$14.3A13.A12.3A7.A$14.A2.A11.3A4.3A4.A.2A5.3A$14.A7.3A
4.A.2A3.A2.A4.3A4.2A.A$14.A3.A3.A2.A4.3A3.A7.2A5.3A$14.A3.A3.A7.2A4.A
3.A10.3A$14.A7.A3.A9.A3.A10.3A$15.A.A4.A3.A9.A15.2A$22.A14.A.A$23.A.A
4$14.A$13.3A15.A$13.A.2A13.3A12.A$14.3A7.A4.2A.A4.3A4.3A$14.3A6.3A3.
3A4.A2.A3.2A.A4.3A$14.3A5.2A.A4.2A7.A3.3A4.A2.A$6.3A5.2A6.3A10.A3.A4.
2A7.A$6.A2.A12.3A10.A3.A9.A3.A$6.A16.2A14.A9.A3.A$6.A3.A25.A.A14.A$6.
A3.A39.A.A$6.A67.2D$7.A.A64.2D2$47.A$17.3A13.A12.3A7.A$17.A2.A11.3A4.
3A4.A.2A5.3A$17.A7.3A4.A.2A3.A2.A4.3A4.2A.A$17.A3.A3.A2.A4.3A3.A7.2A
5.3A$17.A3.A3.A7.2A4.A3.A10.3A$17.A7.A3.A9.A3.A10.3A$18.A.A4.A3.A9.A
15.2A$25.A14.A.A$26.A.A4$17.A$16.3A15.A$16.A.2A13.3A12.A$17.3A7.A4.2A
.A4.3A4.3A$17.3A6.3A3.3A4.A2.A3.2A.A4.3A$17.3A5.2A.A4.2A7.A3.3A4.A2.A
$9.3A5.2A6.3A10.A3.A4.2A7.A$9.A2.A12.3A10.A3.A9.A3.A$9.A16.2A14.A9.A
3.A83.D.D$9.A3.A25.A.A14.A83.2D$9.A3.A39.A.A85.D$9.A$10.A.A2$50.A$20.
3A13.A12.3A7.A$20.A2.A11.3A4.3A4.A.2A5.3A$20.A7.3A4.A.2A3.A2.A4.3A4.
2A.A$20.A3.A3.A2.A4.3A3.A7.2A5.3A$20.A3.A3.A7.2A4.A3.A10.3A$20.A7.A3.
A9.A3.A10.3A$21.A.A4.A3.A9.A15.2A$28.A14.A.A$29.A.A4$20.A$19.3A15.A$
19.A.2A13.3A12.A167.D2.D$20.3A7.A4.2A.A4.3A4.3A165.D$20.3A6.3A3.3A4.A
2.A3.2A.A4.3A158.D3.D$20.3A5.2A.A4.2A7.A3.3A4.A2.A158.4D$12.3A5.2A6.
3A10.A3.A4.2A7.A$12.A2.A12.3A10.A3.A9.A3.A$12.A16.2A14.A9.A3.A$12.A3.
A25.A.A14.A$12.A3.A39.A.A$12.A$13.A.A2$53.A$23.3A13.A12.3A7.E$23.A2.A
11.3A4.3A4.A.2A5.3E$23.A7.3A4.A.2A3.A2.A4.3A4.2E.E$23.A3.A3.A2.A4.3A
3.A7.2A5.3E$23.A3.A3.A7.2A4.A3.A10.3E$23.A7.A3.A9.A3.A10.3E$24.A.A4.A
3.A9.A15.2E$31.A14.A.A$32.A.A4$23.A$22.3A15.A$22.A.2A13.3A12.A$23.3A
7.A4.2A.A4.3A4.3A$23.3A6.3A3.3A4.A2.A3.2A.A4.3A$23.3A5.2A.A4.2A7.A3.
3A4.A2.A$15.3A5.2A6.3A10.A3.A4.2A7.A$15.A2.A12.3A10.A3.A9.A3.A$15.A
16.2A14.A9.A3.A$15.A3.A25.A.A14.A$15.A3.A39.A.A$15.A$16.A.A2$56.A$26.
3A13.A12.3A$26.A2.A11.3A4.3A4.A.2A$26.A7.3A4.A.2A3.A2.A4.3A$26.A3.A3.
A2.A4.3A3.A7.2A216.3D$26.A3.A3.A7.2A4.A3.A221.D$26.A7.A3.A9.A3.A222.D
$27.A.A4.A3.A9.A$34.A14.A.A$35.A.A4$26.A$25.3A15.A$25.A.2A13.3A12.A$
26.3A7.A4.2A.A4.3A4.3A$26.3A6.3A3.3A4.A2.A3.2A.A4.3A$26.3A5.2A.A4.2A
7.A3.3A4.A2.A$18.3A5.2A6.3A10.A3.A4.2A7.A$18.A2.A12.3A10.A3.A9.A3.A$
18.A16.2A14.A9.A3.A$18.A3.A25.A.A14.A$18.A3.A39.A.A$18.A$19.A.A2$59.A
$29.3A13.A12.3A$29.A2.A11.3A4.3A4.A.2A$29.A7.3A4.A.2A3.A2.A4.3A$29.A
3.A3.A2.A4.3A3.A7.2A156.3D$29.A3.A3.A7.2A4.A3.A161.D$29.A7.A3.A9.A3.A
162.D$30.A.A4.A3.A9.A$37.A14.A.A$38.A.A4$29.A$28.3A15.A$28.A.2A13.3A
12.A$29.3A7.A4.2A.A4.3A4.3A$29.3A6.3A3.3A4.A2.A3.2A.A4.3A$29.3A5.2A.A
4.2A7.A3.3A4.A2.A$21.3A5.2A6.3A10.A3.A4.2A7.A$21.A2.A12.3A10.A3.A9.A
3.A$21.A16.2A14.A9.A3.A$21.A3.A25.A.A14.A$21.A3.A39.A.A$21.A$22.A.A!

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 12th, 2016, 11:31 pm
by dvgrn
biggiemac wrote:I also have been trying to make sure this arm can be thawed from a frozen set of still lives. The top of this pattern shows a eater + beehive + block being burned to drop the leftmost track into place, leaving a boat behind. The boat would be in the way of the tracks if they were already in phase, so instead they pass through the boat while in the wrong phase, then get rephased to participate in the cluster. This can only be done because the cluster has multiple rephasable pairs in it (1-2, 2-3 and 4-5). Above the boat, only 4-5 are in phase, meaning the stills that place the other four tracks don't have as much freedom to leave debris.

Because of the debris issue I would really like to be able to set multiple tracks at once, ideally the whole cluster, using turners and splitters. Then a single rake from a thawing climber can activate the whole cluster. (Importantly, the activation rake cannot come from the cluster that constructed the turners and splitters, because that removes the entire timing degree of freedom).
This looks like an interesting design problem, that I might possibly be able to help with somehow. Seems like I have to re-collect turner and splitter timing information all over again, each time around, but something reasonable usually shows up eventually.

A seed constellation that can build four or five precisely synchronized gliders, and has to fit in a 28-cell-wide strip (right?), is going to need a couple dozen still lifes, I would think.

Is there any possibility that extra gliders could be useful if they're not precisely synchronized -- e.g., to shoot down stable debris before it gets in the way?

And do I have the idea right, that these seed constellations would be built by rakes running on a track, not by fanout devices from the top of a helix -- in order to start up new tracks for new clusters to travel on, to make cosets accessible that can't be reached by the initial track?

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 13th, 2016, 1:12 am
by biggiemac
You've pretty much got it, but there are a few more freedoms that hopefully bring down the cost. I'm hoping no worse than 3 SL per glider.

Because the tracks move away from still life debris, anything that successfully places all the tracks at once can be dirty, because rakes from the cluster can perform the cleanup. Placing one track but requiring the rest to pass through makes for a much more strict condition, and I only was barely able to meet it in the pattern above.

The tracks have a few degrees of freedom as well.

Code: Select all

x = 245, y = 122, rule = LifeHistory
131.F$131.F$131.F60.A.A$38.A92.F60.2A$38.A.A90.F61.A$38.2A91.F$64.A.A
64.F$64.2A65.F$51.A.A11.A65.F$51.2A78.F$52.A78.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$
131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F69.A.A$131.F69.2A$131.F70.A$
131.F$131.F$131.F112.A$114.A16.F110.2A$112.2A17.F89.A21.2A$91.A21.2A
16.F89.A.A$91.A.A37.F89.2A$91.2A38.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$
131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$16.36D79.F$16.D34.D79.F$16.D34.D
79.F37.19D$16.D34.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D34.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D34.D79.F37.D
3.A.A11.D$16.D2.A31.D79.F37.D3.2A12.D$16.D2.A.A29.D79.F37.D4.A12.D$
16.D2.2A30.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D28.A.A3.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D28.2A4.D79.F
37.D17.D$16.D15.A.A11.A4.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D15.2A17.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D
16.A17.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D34.D79.F37.D17.D$16.D34.D79.F37.D17.D$16.36D
79.F37.D17.D$131.F37.D17.D$131.F37.D17.D$131.F37.D17.D$131.F17.21D.D.
D.D.D.D.D.D.D.3D9.31D$69.31D31.F17.D19.D17.D.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.
D19.D17.D.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.D19.D12.A.A2.D.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.
F17.D19.D12.2A3.D.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.D19.D13.A3.D.D9.D29.D$69.D
29.D31.F17.D19.D17.D.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.D19.D17.D.D9.D29.D$69.D
29.D31.F17.D19.19D.D9.D25.A3.D$69.D25.A3.D31.F17.D39.D9.D23.2A4.D$69.
D23.2A4.D31.F17.D39.D9.D2.A21.2A3.D$69.D2.A21.2A3.D31.F17.D39.D9.D2.A
.A24.D$69.D2.A.A24.D31.F17.D39.D9.D2.2A25.D$69.D2.2A25.D31.F17.D39.D
9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.D39.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.D39.D9.D29.D$69.D
29.D31.F17.D39.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.D39.D9.D29.D$69.D29.D31.F17.D
39.D9.31D$69.31D31.F17.D39.D$131.F17.D22.3D14.D$131.F17.D22.D.2D13.D$
131.F17.D25.D13.D$131.F17.D24.2D13.D$131.F17.D23.2D14.D$131.F17.D23.D
15.D$131.F17.D39.D$131.F17.D23.D15.D$131.F17.D39.D$131.F17.D39.D$131.
F17.D4.A.A32.D$A130.F17.D4.2A33.D$A.A128.F17.D5.A33.D$2A129.F17.D39.D
$26.A.A102.F17.D39.D$26.2A103.F17.41D$13.A.A11.A103.F$13.2A116.F$14.A
116.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F$131.F31.A
.A$131.F31.2A$131.F32.A$131.F$131.F$131.F74.A$76.A54.F72.2A$74.2A55.F
51.A21.2A$53.A21.2A54.F51.A.A$53.A.A75.F51.2A$53.2A76.F$131.F!
On the left is the full 5-track cluster. The timing is strict among a red box. Between the two boxes, we only need to match the parity of the lane and to match the phase mod 8. So the pair could be shifted any even number of steps horizontally and any even number of steps vertically. The same is true if we build the 4-track cluster that I showed can be used to build the 5-track one. The right pair can be shifted by (2m, 2n) freely and still be functional.

Also, the constellation has to contribute one glider to the track, but which glider has some freedom. Of course the most likely solution is to add the closest together group, but if there is some ambiguity multiple options become viable. The left two tracks of the 4-track cluster look viable whether the seed builds either boxed pair.

As for the amount of space, as long as a rake can activate it it works. Not sure how much room that translates to.

The activation glider can be a singleton, but if it lowers the still life count feel free to use the glider pair from the eater + hive combination as the input signal.

Code: Select all

x = 54, y = 168, rule = LifeHistory
3$41.2A3.2A$40.A.A2.A2.A$40.A5.2A$39.2A24$40.2A3.2A$39.A.A2.A2.A$39.A
5.2A$38.2A24$39.2A3.2A$38.A.A2.A2.A$38.A5.2A$37.2A13$38.3A$39.A$39.3A
10$38.2A$38.2A4$42.2A$42.2A5$43.3A$30.A.A$30.2A$31.A13$37.2A$26.A.A8.
2A$26.2A$27.A2$41.2A$41.2A5$42.3A16$2.16D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D8.A.A3.D
$2.D8.2A4.D$2.D9.A4.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D
$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D4.A.A7.D$
2.D4.2A8.D$2.D5.A8.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.D14.D$2.16D!
So to summarize, the best case would be to find a group of 8ish SLs that the signal pair above can crash into, yielding the 5 gliders above, up to moving the two boxes relative to each other by (2m, 2n) and with possible debris to the right of the cluster.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 14th, 2016, 3:31 am
by wildmyron
Thank you for the detailed explanations of the mechanics underlying this project. I've reread this thread and a lot of the waterbear thread but must admit that I still lack understanding of how one goes about completing these self constructing / self supporting patterns. I guess that only comes from actually building most of one by oneself. Despite the apparent hurdles ahead and the work already built on the hive + eater frozen track, I'd like to post some of the most promising results of the remainder of the (27, 1)c/72 H fuse search. I'm not expecting them to be incorporated, but seeing as it's one of the few parts of this project I can see how to tackle - here they are.

There are three (27,1)c/72 herschel fuses which are comprised of only two spartan SLs.

Code: Select all

x = 181, y = 120, rule = LifeHistory
F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.
F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F33.2A24.F$F
59.F59.F32.A.A24.F$F32.2A3.2A20.F59.F32.2A25.F$F31.A.A2.A2.A19.F32.2A
25.F59.F$F31.A5.2A20.F32.2A25.F59.F$F30.2A27.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F33.A
25.F$F59.F31.A27.F32.A.A24.F$F59.F30.A.A26.F33.A.A23.F$F59.F30.A2.A
25.F34.A24.F$F59.F31.2A26.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.
F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F32.2A25.F
$F59.F59.F31.A.A25.F$F31.2A3.2A21.F59.F31.2A26.F$F30.A.A2.A2.A20.F31.
2A26.F59.F$F30.A5.2A21.F31.2A26.F59.F$F29.2A28.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F32.
A26.F$F59.F30.A28.F31.A.A25.F$F59.F29.A.A27.F32.A.A24.F$F59.F29.A2.A
26.F33.A25.F$F59.F30.2A27.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.
F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F31.2A26.F
$F59.F59.F30.A.A26.F$F30.2A3.2A22.F59.F30.2A27.F$F29.A.A2.A2.A21.F30.
2A27.F59.F$F29.A5.2A22.F30.2A27.F59.F$F28.2A29.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F31.
A27.F$F59.F29.A29.F30.A.A26.F$F59.F28.A.A28.F31.A.A25.F$F59.F28.A2.A
27.F32.A26.F$F59.F29.2A28.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F29.3D
27.F29.3D27.F29.3D27.F$F30.D28.F30.D28.F30.D28.F$F30.3D26.F30.3D26.F
30.3D26.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F
59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F30.2A27.F$F59.F59.F29.A.A27.F$F
29.2A3.2A23.F59.F29.2A28.F$F28.A.A2.A2.A22.F29.2A28.F59.F$F28.A5.2A
23.F29.2A28.F59.F$F27.2A30.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F30.A28.F$F59.F28.A30.F
29.A.A27.F$F59.F27.A.A29.F30.A.A26.F$F59.F27.A2.A28.F31.A27.F$F59.F
28.2A29.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F$F33.A25.F33.A25.F33.A25.F$F
32.3A24.F32.3A24.F32.3A24.F$F31.2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F$F
35.A23.F35.A23.F35.A23.F$F34.A24.F34.A24.F34.A24.F$F30.A28.F30.A28.F
30.A28.F$F30.A.A26.F30.A.A26.F30.A.A26.F$F30.2A27.F30.2A27.F30.2A27.F
!
This next collection either have three spartan SL in the fuse or have an extra output glider. Also included for completeness is the canoe + block fuse with LWSS output to the west.

Code: Select all

x = 481, y = 121, rule = LifeHistory
120.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F$F59.F35.2A22.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F33.2A24.F$F59.F35.A23.F59.F59.
F59.F59.F59.F32.A.A24.F$F59.F36.A22.F59.F59.F39.2A18.F59.F59.F32.A26.
F$F34.A24.F37.A.A19.F34.2A23.F38.A3.A16.F33.2A3.A.A18.F34.2A23.F38.A
20.F31.2A3.A.2A19.F$F33.A.A3.2A18.F31.2A5.2A19.F34.A.A22.F37.A.A.A.A
15.F32.A2.A2.2A19.F34.A.A22.F37.A.A19.F36.2A.A19.F$F32.A.A3.A2.A17.F
31.2A13.2A11.F35.2A4.A17.F38.A3.2A15.F33.2A24.F35.2A22.F31.2A5.A20.F
59.F$F33.A5.2A18.F46.2A11.F40.A.A16.F31.2A26.F30.A28.F40.A18.F32.A26.
F59.F$F59.F59.F30.2A8.A.A16.F30.A.A26.F29.A.A27.F30.2A8.3A16.F30.A9.
2A.A15.F30.A28.F$F29.2A28.F59.F29.A.A9.A17.F31.A27.F30.A28.F29.A.A11.
A15.F30.2A8.A.2A15.F29.A.A27.F$F22.2A5.2A28.F59.F29.2A28.F59.F59.F29.
2A11.2A15.F59.F30.A28.F$F22.2A35.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F
34.2A23.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F32.2A25.F$F59.F34.A24.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F31.A.A25.F$F59.F35.A23.F59.F59.F38.2A19.F59.F59.F31.A27.F$F33.A
25.F36.A.A20.F33.2A24.F37.A3.A17.F32.2A3.A.A19.F33.2A24.F37.A21.F30.
2A3.A.2A20.F$F32.A.A3.2A19.F30.2A5.2A20.F33.A.A23.F36.A.A.A.A16.F31.A
2.A2.2A20.F33.A.A23.F36.A.A20.F35.2A.A20.F$F31.A.A3.A2.A18.F30.2A13.
2A12.F34.2A4.A18.F37.A3.2A16.F32.2A25.F34.2A23.F30.2A5.A21.F59.F$F32.
A5.2A19.F45.2A12.F39.A.A17.F30.2A27.F29.A29.F39.A19.F31.A27.F59.F$F
59.F59.F29.2A8.A.A17.F29.A.A27.F28.A.A28.F29.2A8.3A17.F29.A9.2A.A16.F
29.A29.F$F28.2A29.F59.F28.A.A9.A18.F30.A28.F29.A29.F28.A.A11.A16.F29.
2A8.A.2A16.F28.A.A28.F$F21.2A5.2A29.F59.F28.2A29.F59.F59.F28.2A11.2A
16.F59.F29.A29.F$F21.2A36.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F33.2A24.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F31.2A26.F$F59.F33.A25.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F30.A.A
26.F$F59.F34.A24.F59.F59.F37.2A20.F59.F59.F30.A28.F$F32.A26.F35.A.A
21.F32.2A25.F36.A3.A18.F31.2A3.A.A20.F32.2A25.F36.A22.F29.2A3.A.2A21.
F$F31.A.A3.2A20.F29.2A5.2A21.F32.A.A24.F35.A.A.A.A17.F30.A2.A2.2A21.F
32.A.A24.F35.A.A21.F34.2A.A21.F$F30.A.A3.A2.A19.F29.2A13.2A13.F33.2A
4.A19.F36.A3.2A17.F31.2A26.F33.2A24.F29.2A5.A22.F59.F$F31.A5.2A20.F
44.2A13.F38.A.A18.F29.2A28.F28.A30.F38.A20.F30.A28.F59.F$F59.F59.F28.
2A8.A.A18.F28.A.A28.F27.A.A29.F28.2A8.3A18.F28.A9.2A.A17.F28.A30.F$F
27.2A30.F59.F27.A.A9.A19.F29.A29.F28.A30.F27.A.A11.A17.F28.2A8.A.2A
17.F27.A.A29.F$F20.2A5.2A30.F59.F27.2A30.F59.F59.F27.2A11.2A17.F59.F
28.A30.F$F20.2A37.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F$F29.3D27.F29.3D27.F29.3D27.F29.3D27.F29.3D27.F29.3D27.F
29.3D27.F29.3D27.F$F30.D28.F30.D28.F30.D28.F30.D28.F30.D28.F30.D28.F
30.D28.F30.D28.F$F30.3D26.F30.3D26.F30.3D26.F30.3D26.F30.3D26.F30.3D
26.F30.3D26.F30.3D26.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.
F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F32.2A25.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F30.2A27.F$F59.
F32.A26.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F29.A.A27.F$F59.F33.A25.F59.F59.F36.2A21.
F59.F59.F29.A29.F$F31.A27.F34.A.A22.F31.2A26.F35.A3.A19.F30.2A3.A.A
21.F31.2A26.F35.A23.F28.2A3.A.2A22.F$F30.A.A3.2A21.F28.2A5.2A22.F31.A
.A25.F34.A.A.A.A18.F29.A2.A2.2A22.F31.A.A25.F34.A.A22.F33.2A.A22.F$F
29.A.A3.A2.A20.F28.2A13.2A14.F32.2A4.A20.F35.A3.2A18.F30.2A27.F32.2A
25.F28.2A5.A23.F59.F$F30.A5.2A21.F43.2A14.F37.A.A19.F28.2A29.F27.A31.
F37.A21.F29.A29.F59.F$F59.F59.F27.2A8.A.A19.F27.A.A29.F26.A.A30.F27.
2A8.3A19.F27.A9.2A.A18.F27.A31.F$F26.2A31.F59.F26.A.A9.A20.F28.A30.F
27.A31.F26.A.A11.A18.F27.2A8.A.2A18.F26.A.A30.F$F19.2A5.2A31.F59.F26.
2A31.F59.F59.F26.2A11.2A18.F59.F27.A31.F$F19.2A38.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F$F59.F59.F59.F59.F59.F
59.F59.F59.F$F33.A25.F33.A25.F33.A25.F33.A25.F33.A25.F33.A25.F33.A25.
F33.A25.F$F32.3A24.F32.3A24.F32.3A24.F32.3A24.F32.3A24.F32.3A24.F32.
3A24.F32.3A24.F$F31.2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F31.
2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F31.2A2.A23.F$F35.A23.F35.A23.F35.A
23.F35.A23.F35.A23.F35.A23.F35.A23.F35.A23.F$F34.A24.F34.A24.F34.A24.
F34.A24.F34.A24.F34.A24.F34.A24.F34.A24.F$F30.A28.F30.A28.F30.A28.F
30.A28.F30.A28.F30.A28.F30.A28.F30.A28.F$F30.A.A26.F30.A.A26.F30.A.A
26.F30.A.A26.F30.A.A26.F30.A.A26.F30.A.A26.F30.A.A26.F$F30.2A27.F30.
2A27.F30.2A27.F30.2A27.F30.2A27.F30.2A27.F30.2A27.F30.2A27.F!
And finally, here is a curiousity which I suspect is completely irrelevant: a three SL fuse which is period tripling. It's dirty and takes quite a while to get going, hence the length.

Code: Select all

x = 65, y = 1395, rule = LifeHistory
56.2A$56.A.A2.2A$57.2A3.A$62.A.A$52.2A9.2A$51.A.A$51.2A21$55.2A$55.A.
A2.2A$56.2A3.A$61.A.A$51.2A9.2A$50.A.A$50.2A21$54.2A$54.A.A2.2A$55.2A
3.A$60.A.A$50.2A9.2A$49.A.A$49.2A21$53.2A$53.A.A2.2A$54.2A3.A$59.A.A$
49.2A9.2A$48.A.A$48.2A21$52.2A$52.A.A2.2A$53.2A3.A$58.A.A$48.2A9.2A$
47.A.A$47.2A21$51.2A$51.A.A2.2A$52.2A3.A$57.A.A$47.2A9.2A$46.A.A$46.
2A21$50.2A$50.A.A2.2A$51.2A3.A$56.A.A$46.2A9.2A$45.A.A$45.2A21$49.2A$
49.A.A2.2A$50.2A3.A$55.A.A$45.2A9.2A$44.A.A$44.2A21$48.2A$48.A.A2.2A$
49.2A3.A$54.A.A$44.2A9.2A$43.A.A$43.2A21$47.2A$47.A.A2.2A$48.2A3.A$
53.A.A$43.2A9.2A$42.A.A$42.2A21$46.2A$46.A.A2.2A$47.2A3.A$52.A.A$42.
2A9.2A$41.A.A$41.2A21$45.2A$45.A.A2.2A$46.2A3.A$51.A.A$41.2A9.2A$40.A
.A$40.2A21$44.2A$44.A.A2.2A$45.2A3.A$50.A.A$40.2A9.2A$39.A.A$39.2A21$
43.2A$43.A.A2.2A$44.2A3.A$49.A.A$39.2A9.2A$38.A.A$38.2A21$42.2A$42.A.
A2.2A$43.2A3.A$48.A.A$38.2A9.2A$37.A.A$37.2A21$41.2A$41.A.A2.2A$42.2A
3.A$47.A.A$37.2A9.2A$36.A.A$36.2A21$40.2A$40.A.A2.2A$41.2A3.A$46.A.A$
36.2A9.2A$35.A.A$35.2A21$39.2A$39.A.A2.2A$40.2A3.A$45.A.A$35.2A9.2A$
34.A.A$34.2A21$38.2A$38.A.A2.2A$39.2A3.A$44.A.A$34.2A9.2A$33.A.A$33.
2A21$37.2A$37.A.A2.2A$38.2A3.A$43.A.A$33.2A9.2A$32.A.A$32.2A21$36.2A$
36.A.A2.2A$37.2A3.A$42.A.A$32.2A9.2A$31.A.A$31.2A21$35.2A$35.A.A2.2A$
36.2A3.A$41.A.A$31.2A9.2A$30.A.A$30.2A21$34.2A$34.A.A2.2A$35.2A3.A$
40.A.A$30.2A9.2A$29.A.A$29.2A21$33.2A$33.A.A2.2A$34.2A3.A$39.A.A$29.
2A9.2A$28.A.A$28.2A21$32.2A$32.A.A2.2A$33.2A3.A$38.A.A$28.2A9.2A$27.A
.A$27.2A21$31.2A$31.A.A2.2A$32.2A3.A$37.A.A$27.2A9.2A$26.A.A$26.2A21$
30.2A$30.A.A2.2A$31.2A3.A$36.A.A$26.2A9.2A$25.A.A$25.2A21$29.2A$29.A.
A2.2A$30.2A3.A$35.A.A$25.2A9.2A$24.A.A$24.2A21$28.2A$28.A.A2.2A$29.2A
3.A$34.A.A$24.2A9.2A$23.A.A$23.2A21$27.2A$27.A.A2.2A$28.2A3.A$33.A.A$
23.2A9.2A$22.A.A$22.2A21$26.2A$26.A.A2.2A$27.2A3.A$32.A.A$22.2A9.2A$
21.A.A$21.2A21$25.2A$25.A.A2.2A$26.2A3.A$31.A.A$21.2A9.2A$20.A.A$20.
2A21$24.2A$24.A.A2.2A$25.2A3.A$30.A.A$20.2A9.2A$19.A.A$19.2A21$23.2A$
23.A.A2.2A$24.2A3.A$29.A.A$19.2A9.2A$18.A.A$18.2A21$22.2A$22.A.A2.2A$
23.2A3.A$28.A.A$18.2A9.2A$17.A.A$17.2A21$21.2A$21.A.A2.2A$22.2A3.A$
27.A.A$17.2A9.2A$16.A.A$16.2A21$20.2A$20.A.A2.2A$21.2A3.A$26.A.A$16.
2A9.2A$15.A.A$15.2A21$19.2A$19.A.A2.2A$20.2A3.A$25.A.A$15.2A9.2A$14.A
.A$14.2A21$18.2A$18.A.A2.2A$19.2A3.A$24.A.A$14.2A9.2A$13.A.A$13.2A21$
17.2A$17.A.A2.2A$18.2A3.A$23.A.A$13.2A9.2A$12.A.A$12.2A21$16.2A$16.A.
A2.2A$17.2A3.A$22.A.A$12.2A9.2A$11.A.A$11.2A21$15.2A$15.A.A2.2A$16.2A
3.A$21.A.A$11.2A9.2A$10.A.A$10.2A21$14.2A$14.A.A2.2A$15.2A3.A$20.A.A$
10.2A9.2A$9.A.A$9.2A21$13.2A$13.A.A2.2A$14.2A3.A$19.A.A$9.2A9.2A$8.A.
A$8.2A21$12.2A$12.A.A2.2A$13.2A3.A$18.A.A$8.2A9.2A$7.A.A$7.2A21$11.2A
$11.A.A2.2A$12.2A3.A$17.A.A$7.2A9.2A$6.A.A$6.2A21$10.2A$10.A.A2.2A$
11.2A3.A$16.A.A$6.2A9.2A$5.A.A$5.2A21$9.2A$9.A.A2.2A$10.2A3.A$15.A.A$
5.2A9.2A$4.A.A$4.2A21$8.2A$8.A.A2.2A$9.2A3.A$14.A.A$4.2A9.2A$3.A.A$3.
2A21$7.2A$7.A.A2.2A$8.2A3.A$13.A.A$3.2A9.2A$2.A.A$2.2A21$6.2A$6.A.A2.
2A$7.2A3.A$12.A.A$2.2A9.2A$.A.A$.2A9$3.3D$4.D$4.3D10$5.2A$5.A.A2.2A$
6.2A3.A$11.A.A$.2A9.2A$A.A$2A4$7.A$6.3A$5.2A2.A$9.A$8.A$4.A$4.A.A$4.
2A!
There are a stack of other results but they're even less likely to be useful, so I'll post them elsewhere. I'm no longer continuing this search, but I'll pick it up again if some particularly desirable characteristic of fuse is requested.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 14th, 2016, 4:46 am
by biggiemac
Thanks for doing this search! The loaf + block is the most attractive of the bunch, I'd say more so even than the eater + hive.

I had nearly forgotten about the surprise LWSS. With the possible design mentioned above, a westward LWSS might actually be very useful! Depending on available recipes and fanouts, we might end up synthesizing on both sides of the track, and the ability to have a frozen LWSS rake is far better than needing a whole cluster to make an LWSS rake. (This exact realization helped make the second and third large triangles of the Waterbear much easier than the first)

I would certainly like to see a dump of all viable results if such a thing exists. Being able to meet the timing requirements of the helix requires as full of an arsenal of frozen tracks as one can get. I'm pretty sure I consulted the "tracks built from various objects" post in the early Waterbear thread many many times throughout the construction to see what I could use, and the right choice depended a lot on the circumstances.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 14th, 2016, 5:08 am
by wildmyron
biggiemac wrote:I would certainly like to see a dump of all viable results if such a thing exists. Being able to meet the timing requirements of the helix requires as full of an arsenal of frozen tracks as one can get. I'm pretty sure I consulted the "tracks built from various objects" post in the early Waterbear thread many many times throughout the construction to see what I could use, and the right choice depended a lot on the circumstances.
All the other viable results I have plus some extras are in the Useless Discoveries thread. I've shifted away from the JLS search which is what gave all the complex fuses and went for testing all constellations of spartan SL within a small bounding box at a range of offsets from the input H. The constellations searched covered up to 3 SL within a 10x5 or 5x10 box. SL object list is: block, tub, boat, beehive, pond, ship, loaf, barge, snake, carrier, and eater1. I can extend this to include additional objects in a slightly larger bounding box. What do you think about adding long boat, ship-tie, twit, mango, long barge and canoe, including up to four objects, and extending the bounding box to 12x7 plus 7x12?

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 14th, 2016, 7:24 am
by Scorbie
Wow, JLS, huh? Did you setup the spartan search with LifeAPI or Golly script? Just curious.

Re: (27,1)c/72 caterpillar challenge

Posted: July 14th, 2016, 9:44 am
by biggiemac
I feel that most results will use a couple still lives as the "core," which will spawn another Herschel at the right offset and timing. I wanted to add manually some blocks or things to see if I could get something useful out of the debris. Looking at the block I added to the hive + eater in my pattern above, it's so far out of be initial box that including such a constellation in a search would likely make the search space too large to be practical.

Widening the search to more SLs, harder to synthesize, still closely packed might only give unusable results but I wouldn't object to having whatever information it provides. If you were to adjust only a single parameter I would say increasing the bounding box, looking for something in 12x12 with maybe fewer SL options, like only block, hive, boat and loaf.
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