Re: Thread for basic questions
Posted: October 7th, 2022, 4:10 am
Is there a way to extract the encoded LWSS stream from the p46-based PRNG?
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Couldn't you just remove the eater at the middle right that deletes the LWSS stream?qqd wrote: October 7th, 2022, 4:10 am Is there a way to extract the encoded LWSS stream from the p46-based PRNG?
It would solve most but not all of the weird exceptional cases to add a comment line that gives the canonical name of the elementary conduit. The canonical name plus the canonical (x,y) offset would take care of everything, I think.confocaloid wrote: October 7th, 2022, 3:14 amI think this approach can be made to work for stable or periodic X-to-(any number of spaceships and nothing else), as well as factories/keepers/period multipliers that produce stationary objects. But non-spaceship outputs may damage the conduit if nothing is connected to them, so some other ideas are needed.
confocaloid wrote: October 7th, 2022, 3:14 am What could be a way to encode a conduit (i.e. not just timing/lanes/displacements, but the specific conduit itself, including arrangement of catalysts and description of input/output), which is reasonably convenient to use, and hopefully is reasonably compact (ideally short enough to fit on a single line)?
For stable X-to-glider(s), it should be sufficient to provide the two-state RLE with the input given in the preferred canonical form; since all outputs are escaping gliders, it is in principle possible to derive everything else automatically. Example:I think this approach can be made to work for stable or periodic X-to-(any number of spaceships and nothing else), as well as factories/keepers/period multipliers that produce stationary objects. But non-spaceship outputs may damage the conduit if nothing is connected to them, so some other ideas are needed.Code: Select all
x = 24, y = 27, rule = B3/S23 17bo$15b3o$14bo$14b2o$22b2o$22bo$20bobo$14bo5b2o$14bobo$14b3o$16bo8$ 22bo$21bobo$22bo$17b2o$16bo2bo$2b2o13b2o$bobo$bo$2o!
Basically, I was wondering whether there is a good way to write down a single-line code that encodes all "important" information about some conduit. That would include ability to recover the canonical name, and also ability to recover the arrangement of catalysts (at least partially, up to replacements of catalysts that do not affect the way how the conduit works).dvgrn wrote: October 7th, 2022, 8:24 amIt would solve most but not all of the weird exceptional cases to add a comment line that gives the canonical name of the elementary conduit. The canonical name plus the canonical (x,y) offset would take care of everything, I think.confocaloid wrote: October 7th, 2022, 3:14 amI think this approach can be made to work for stable or periodic X-to-(any number of spaceships and nothing else), as well as factories/keepers/period multipliers that produce stationary objects. But non-spaceship outputs may damage the conduit if nothing is connected to them, so some other ideas are needed.
The weird exceptional cases include|
1) conduits where the output overlaps the input, so we can't have a script that accepts two-state RLE and a pattern that shows both the input and output patterns;
2) conduits, such as dependent conduits for Herschels, where the input never actually reaches the canonical form, or where the output only converges to a descendant of the canonical form of the output object.
The second type of conduit might not be auto-recognizable even if you switch to a multistate format. But why does it seem like a good idea to re-process and re-recognize conduits, anyway? Seems like we'll eventually want a collection of conduits that has been checked for validity and has all of the relevant information already recorded.
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x = 325, y = 32, rule = LifeHistory
4D2.5D7.5D2.3D2.D3.D36.4D2.5D7.5D2.3D2.D3.D.D34.4D2.5D7.5D2.3D2.D3.D
36.4D2.5D7.5D2.3D2.D3.D5.D30.4D2.5D7.5D2.3D2.D3.D$D3.D.D11.D5.D3.D.D
3.D36.D3.D.D11.D5.D3.D.D3.D.D34.D3.D.D11.D5.D3.D.D3.D36.D3.D.D11.D5.D
3.D.D3.D5.D30.D3.D.D11.D5.D3.D.D3.D$D3.D.D5.D3.D.D5.D3.D.D3.D2.4D30.D
3.D.D5.D3.D.D5.D3.D.D3.D.4D31.D3.D.D5.D3.D.D5.D3.D.D3.D2.4D30.D3.D.D
5.D3.D.D5.D3.D.D3.D2.4D30.D3.D.D5.D3.D.D5.D3.D.D3.D2.3D$4D2.3D4.D.D3.
3D3.4D.5D.D3.D30.4D2.3D4.D.D3.3D3.4D.5D.D3.D30.4D2.3D4.D.D3.3D3.4D.5D
.D34.4D2.3D4.D.D3.3D3.4D.5D.D3.D30.4D2.3D4.D.D3.3D3.4D.5D.D3.D$D3.D.D
7.D7.D5.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D7.D7.D5.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D7.D7.D5.D.D3.
D.D34.D3.D.D7.D7.D5.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D7.D7.D5.D.D3.D.5D$D3.D.D6.D.D
2.D3.D5.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D6.D.D2.D3.D5.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D6.D.D2.D
3.D5.D.D3.D.D34.D3.D.D6.D.D2.D3.D5.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D6.D.D2.D3.D5.D
.D3.D.D$4D2.D5.D3.D2.3D3.3D2.D3.D2.4D30.4D2.D5.D3.D2.3D3.3D2.D3.D.4D
31.4D2.D5.D3.D2.3D3.3D2.D3.D2.4D30.4D2.D5.D3.D2.3D3.3D2.D3.D2.4D30.4D
2.D5.D3.D2.3D3.3D2.D3.D2.4D10$11.7B.B62.7B.B62.7B.B62.7B.B62.7B.B$11.
13B.B56.13B.B56.13B.B56.13B.B56.13B.B$9.D21B49.D21B49.D21B49.D21B49.D
21B$9.BD21BD47.BD21BD47.BD21BD47.BD21BD47.BD21BD$8.2B2D18B3DB45.2B2D
18B3DB45.2B2D18B3DB45.2B2D18B3DB45.2B2D18B3DB$7.2B2D2B2A15BDBD45.2B2D
2B2A15BDBD45.2B2D2B2A15BDBD45.2B2D2B2A15BDBD45.2B2D2B2A15BDBD$7.2BD3B
2A15BD47.2BD3B2A15BD47.2BD3B2A15BD47.2BD3B2A15BD47.2BD3B2A15BD$9.11B
3.2B2.2B51.11B3.2B2.2B51.11B3.2B2.2B51.11B3.2B2.2B51.11B3.2B2.2B$9.
10B61.10B61.10B61.10B61.10B$10.6B65.6B65.6B65.6B65.6B$11.3B68.3B68.3B
68.3B68.3B$11.B70.B70.B70.B70.B$10.2A69.2A69.2A66.2A.2A68.2A.A$10.A
70.A70.A68.A.A68.A2.2A$11.A70.3A65.A.A68.A.A68.2A$10.2A72.A65.2A70.A!
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x = 100, y = 39, rule = LifeHistory
65.4D2.5D4.D3.3D2.D3.D.D$4D2.5D4.D3.3D2.D3.D36.D3.D.D7.2D2.D3.D.D3.D.
D$D3.D.D7.2D2.D3.D.D3.D36.D3.D.D6.D.D2.D3.D.D3.D.4D$D3.D.D6.D.D2.D3.D
.D3.D2.4D30.4D2.3D3.D2.D3.3D2.5D.D3.D$4D2.3D3.D2.D3.3D2.5D.D3.D30.D2.
D2.D5.5D.D3.D.D3.D.D3.D$D2.D2.D5.5D.D3.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D8.D2.D3.D.
D3.D.D3.D$D3.D.D8.D2.D3.D.D3.D.D3.D30.D3.D.D8.D3.3D2.D3.D.4D$D3.D.D8.
D3.3D2.D3.D2.4D9$74.2A$9.4B60.B2AB$8.6B60.2B9.A$8.8B57.4B6.3A$8.10B
54.7B3.A$3.3B.11B4.2B2.2B44.7B3.2A$3.7BD18BD42.7B2.3B$2.8B2D17BDBD40.
10B4.2B2.2B$.8B2D18B3DB37.4BD18BD$2.28B.D37.5B2D17BDBD$3.27B39.4B2D
18B3DB$3.2B2A16B.B43.27BD$3.BA2BA12B49.25B$4.ABA12B50.18B.B$4.BA13B
50.14B$4.16B49.14B$4.16B49.14B$6.13B51.11B.B2A$6.13B52.B2.6B2.BA.A$6.
12B56.2B9.A$13.B61.AB8.2A$74.A.A$74.2A!
Scorbie answered this in the affirmative on Discord. It remains a sparker.hotdogPi wrote: October 6th, 2022, 11:52 am Take the oscillator 101. Can anything from outside interact with the spark at all? I think I can prove it impossible without touching the stator at all, but given that the stator looks like an eater 1 form, it may be possible for an outside region to hit the spark without destroying the 101 oscillator by having it recover.
If the answer is "no", we can remove it from the "strong sparker" category, which was a bit ridiculous to begin with.
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x = 47, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
4b2o6b2o$3bobo6bobo$3bo10bo$2obo10bob2o$2obo2bob2obo2bob2o$3bobobo2bob
obo$3bobobo2bobobo$2obo2bob2obo2bob2o$2obo10bob2o$3bo10bo$3bobo6bobo$
4b2o6b2o2$8b3o27b3o$10b5o25b5o$8bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo$6b3o7bo19b3o7bo$5bo
29bo!Code: Select all
x = 40, y = 12, rule = LifeSuper
3.G5.G.G7.G.G.G7.G.G.G.G$2.M.M4.2M.M5.M.3M.M5.M.2M.2M.M$2.HM2H6.M5.M
5.M5.M7.M$3.3H6.2M5.5M5.2M7.2M$4.H16.M4$3.G5.G.G7.G.G.G$.3M3.3M.3M4.M
.2M.3M$M5.M7.M3.M7.M$2M4.2M5.2M2.2M6.2M!
This turns out to be a question that JLS can answer without even running any searches. Just the automatic pre-processing produces unsolvable conflicts.Wyirm wrote: October 8th, 2022, 10:42 am Is it possible to stabilize 5 isolated cells in a line from one side?
Why would this be the case that 5 is impossible? It's not exactly like the quintic formula and its parity issues, so why is 5 the limit?
So there are three cases to consider for how the center cell is stabilized (with case A also including its mirror as a corollary - just take the entire pattern and flip it horizontally):Wyirm wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:11 am Why would this be the case that 5 is impossible? It's not exactly like the quintic formula and its parity issues, so why is 5 the limit?
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x = 37, y = 9, rule = LifeSuper
2.4H10.3H11.4H$2.H2.H10.H2.H10.H$2.4H10.3H11.H$2.H2.H10.H2.H10.H$2.H
2.H10.3H11.4H3$G.G.G.G.G5.G.G.G.G.G5.G.G.G.G.G$3.2M12.M.M11.3M!
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x = 9, y = 2, rule = LifeSuper
G.G.G.G.G$2.3M!
Code: Select all
x = 9, y = 2, rule = LifeSuper
G.G.G.G.G$.M.2M!
Code: Select all
x = 9, y = 2, rule = LifeSuper
GHG.G.G.G$.M.2M!
Code: Select all
x = 9, y = 2, rule = LifeSuper
G.G.G.G.G$2M.2M!
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x = 9, y = 2, rule = LifeSuper
G.GHGHG.G$3.M.M!
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x = 9, y = 2, rule = LifeSuper
G.G.G.G.G$2.2M.2M!
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x = 52, y = 9, rule = LifeSuper
3.2H12.3H11.3H12.H.H$4.H14.H13.H12.H.H$4.H12.3H11.3H12.3H$4.H12.H15.H
14.H$3.3H11.3H11.3H14.H3$G.G.G.G.G5.G.G.G.G.G5.G.G.G.G.G6.G.G.G.G.G$
2M.3M7.2M2.3M7.M.M.3M8.3M.3M!
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x = 10, y = 2, rule = LifeSuper
.GHG.G.G.G$M.M.3M!
Thank you!Ian07 wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:34 amHelpful explanationWyirm wrote: October 8th, 2022, 11:11 am Why would this be the case that 5 is impossible? It's not exactly like the quintic formula and its parity issues, so why is 5 the limit?
With all possible cases ruled out, it has been proven that it is impossible to stabilize this thing from one direction.
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x = 93, y = 82, rule = B3/S23
20$72b3o$71bobo$72b2obob2o$74b4o$70b2o3b2o$70bobo2$70bobo$72bo2b2o$69b
3o3bo$70bo3bo$71bo7b3o$70b2ob2o$72b2obo11b2o$75b2o10b2o$75b3o$75b2o$
34b3o12b2o19bo2b3o$33bo15b2o19b5o$33bo3b2o32b3o$31b2o5bo2b3o21b3o8bobo
$30bob3o3bobo2bo5bo14bo2b2o5bo3bo$30bo2b2o2bo2bo2bo4bobo13bo3b2obob2o$
31bo4bo4bo8b2o12b3obo3bo3b2o$46b2ob2o15bobobob2o2b2o$35b3o10b2o15b2ob
2obobo2bo$64bo2b2o3bo2b2o$54bo8b2ob2o5b3o$54bo9bobo8bo4b2o$54bo10bo9bo
3bo2bo$74bobo2bo2bo$75bo4b2o4$65b2o$65b2o12$57b2o$57b2o!
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x = 7, y = 7, rule = B3/S23
4b3o$6bo$5b2o2$2o$o$3o!
There was a similar question about whether natural LWSSes more commonly form by a glider synthesis or from other predecessors - link to a reply.pipsqueek wrote: October 8th, 2022, 4:48 pm I was messing around and I found an eater emerge from a natural synthesis.are there any other objects that have been observed to synthesize naturally?Code: Select all
rle
Note that the eater in this case forms as a result of a collision of two gliders, rather than by any of the more "natural" eater predecessors. This way is highly anomalous, because with the exception of this two-glider synthesis, eaters occur in random ash with a rarity typical of other objects that need 4 gliders to synthesize.pipsqueek wrote: October 8th, 2022, 4:48 pmI was messing around and I found an eater emerge from a natural synthesis. ...
I can't think of any offhand, though most likely examples could be found of all of the recognizable two-glider collisions, just by running a lot of soups and looking for the ones that have an isolated island off to the side.pipsqueek wrote: October 8th, 2022, 4:48 pmI was messing around and I found an eater emerge from a natural synthesis. ...
are there any other objects that have been observed to synthesize naturally?
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x = 28, y = 32, rule = B3/S23
7bo12bo$5b3o12b3o$4bo18bo$4b2o16b2o2$b2o22b2o$bobo20bobo$2b2o20b2o3$13b
2o$3b3o7b2o7b3o$2bo2bo16bo2bo$bo2b2o7b2o7b2o2bo$2ob2o8b2o8b2ob2o$bobo
3bo12bo3bobo$2bo3bobo10bobo3bo$5b2ob2o8b2ob2o$4b2o2bo10bo2b2o$4bo2bo12b
o2bo$4b3o14b3o4$6b2o12b2o$6bobo10bobo$7b2o10b2o2$4b2o16b2o$5bo16bo$2b
3o18b3o$2bo22bo!
The LWSS can appear like this:confocaloid wrote: October 8th, 2022, 5:14 pmThere was a similar question about whether natural LWSSes more commonly form by a glider synthesis or from other predecessors - link to a reply.pipsqueek wrote: October 8th, 2022, 4:48 pm I was messing around and I found an eater emerge from a natural synthesis.are there any other objects that have been observed to synthesize naturally?Code: Select all
rle
Code: Select all
x = 13, y = 7, rule = B3/S23
o$b2o$2o$10b2o$11b2o$10b2o$10bo!
One hundred thirty-seven. You might think it would be more, but a lot of them aren't particularly "promising" because they don't have much hope of being completed in a way that supplies any kind of interesting sparks or other interactions at the edges.confocaloid wrote: October 9th, 2022, 5:21 am Roughly how many "promising" oscillator partials are known (in total and/or in average per period and/or for some specific periods), for some definition of "promising", probably including but not limited to those posted in Oscillator Discussion Thread?
Have you forgotten that two of the four missing periods were discovered this year?Wyirm wrote: October 9th, 2022, 2:42 pm Is there hope of a p19 oscillator? Have we spent so long trying to prove omniperiodicity that we should instead be trying to disprove it?
Where there's Life, there's hope, as the saying goes. The idea of disproving omniperiodicity has been discussed plenty of times before, and it really just doesn't seem like there's any mathematically viable way to even start working on such a proof.Wyirm wrote: October 9th, 2022, 2:42 pm Is there hope of a p19 oscillator? Have we spent so long trying to prove omniperiodicity that we should instead be trying to disprove it?
There's barely any description on how it works. Could you tell me how it works?dvgrn wrote: September 20th, 2022, 4:59 pm
... Well, that's not quite true. Maybe we should look at re-implementing the SQ / B2D unit using the reactions from Kiho Park's 2D memory unit, but with Snarks and syringes and such as needed.
I don't know how it works any more than you do. It would be an interesting reverse-engineering job.AlbertArmStain wrote: October 11th, 2022, 6:06 pm There's barely any description on how it works. Could you tell me how it works?
Much harder. Not even comparable.C28 wrote: October 13th, 2022, 7:23 am is searching for conduits that output a given methuselah harder than finding ones that have it as an input?