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Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 2:49 am
by codeholic
Congratulations! Why didn't you put guns on both sides of glider salvos?
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 6:03 am
by simsim314
codeholic wrote:Congratulations! Why didn't you put guns on both sides of glider salvos?
I intend to automate the gun creation process, so I tried to make it the simplest as possible for the gun generation script. Anyway there was a lot of hand work there, so it's not exactly script generated - but it came not optimized for space as well... anyway think of it as result from alpha version of universal gun-generation script.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 9:56 am
by simsim314
Here is a concept on how to improve the synth further:
Code: Select all
x = 27, y = 35, rule = LifeHistory
9.A$9.A.A$9.2A3$12.A$11.A.2A$10.2A.2A$11.A$11.A2.A$11.2A.2A$14.A$5.3A
$5.A2.A4.A$7.2A.A$3.A6.A3.A$3.A$4.A3.A3.3A$5.A2.A3.A$9.A.6A$8.2A.6A$
23.A$23.2A$.4A4.2A.2A4.2A.A.A$A4.A3.A3.A3.A3.A$2A3.A4.A.A4.A5.A$A4.A
3.2A.2A3.A5.A$.A2.A13.A3.A2.2A$2.2A15.3A3.2A$9.5C$10.C.C$18.3A$18.A4.
3A$19.A3.A$24.A!
I can't find a way to generate this spark, and this doesn't has to be that particular spark. The point is that we waste around 20 gliders just to make double-snake while we don't "really" need it.
EDIT even simpler:
Code: Select all
x = 27, y = 35, rule = LifeHistory
9.A$9.A.A$9.2A3$12.A$11.A.2A$10.2A.2A$11.A$11.A2.A$11.2A.2A$14.A$5.3A
$5.A2.A4.A$7.2A.A$3.A6.A3.A$3.A$4.A3.A3.3A$5.A2.A3.A$9.A.6A$8.2A.6A$
23.A$23.2A$.4A4.2A.2A4.2A.A.A$A4.A3.A3.A3.A3.A$2A3.A4.A.A4.A5.A$A4.A
3.2A.2A3.A5.A$.A2.A13.A3.A2.2A$2.2A6.3C6.3A3.2A$11.2C2$18.3A$18.A4.3A
$19.A3.A$24.A!
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 12:45 pm
by Kazyan
That first spark reminds me of how
moose antlers typically form, if anyone's willing to chase that particular rabbit.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 1:54 pm
by dvgrn
simsim314 wrote:Here it is! Dart X-gun (see attachment)
Can you make it an .rle extension, to keep Golly from wanting to open it in a text editor?
It's a bit too big to fit in a message code block, either as .RLE or as .MC. The .RLE might fit if eight shotguns were used instead of four, because the bounding box could easily be reduced below 1000x1000.
But I didn't expect the four salvos to all be buildable from one side. I suppose they're probably not all buildable from the opposite side, but can the outer 6-8 gliders of each quarter-recipe all be reached from the other side of the salvo lanes?
The other way to post something that copies quickly into Golly would be to use File > Run Clipboard on a script that builds the gun. That could be a surprisingly short piece of code...!
simsim314 wrote:EDIT even simpler: ...
Offhand I don't see how to turn on all three cells of that second spark in just one tick, without enough added junk at T-1 to make it not really a simpler spark after all:
Code: Select all
#C not-so-simple spark at T-1
x = 29, y = 46, rule = B3/S23
7$11bobo$11b2o$12bo3$14bo$13bobo$13bob2o$13bobo$14bobo$14b3o$14bobo$8b
o4b2o$7b3o3b2o$7bob2ob3o$5b3o5bob2o$6b2o6b3o$7b3o5bo$8b3o10bo$11bob2o
2b2o$10b2ob2ob2o6bo$26bo$22bo2bo$4b2o5b2ob2o5bo3bo$2b2ob2o4bo3bo4b2ob
2o$3b2ob2o4bobo4b3ob3o$5b2o4b2ob2o4b2ob2o$2b4o15b3o3b2o$4bo17bo4b2o$
11b5o$9b4o$15b3o3b2o$10bo9b2o4b2o$22bo2b2o$27bo!
The point is definitely well taken: maybe there's cheaper burnable stable junk that could be built back there, for example, that would collapse into an appropriate spark.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 2:27 pm
by chris_c
I've been playing around trying to make the front cheaper. I managed to replace the integral sign with an eater assuming this would lead to a reduction. Alas, the only way I found to make the eater + block combination is one glider more expensive than before:
Code: Select all
x = 133, y = 46, rule = B3/S23
35bo76bobo$21bo13bobo74b2o$21bobo11b2o76bo$21b2o86bo$90bo19bo$88bobo
17b3o$13bo75b2o$13bobo81bo14bo$2bo6bo3b2o80bobo13bo$obo7bo85b2o13b3o$b
2o5b3o110bo$121bobo$121b2o$125bobo$125b2o$126bo$92bo10bo$15bo77b2o8b3o
$14bobob2o72b2o12bob2o$15b2ob2o85b2ob2o3$16b2ob2o85b2ob2o$16bo3bo85bo
3bo$17bobo87bobo8b2o$16b2ob2o85b2ob2o7bobo8b2o$16bo3bo85bo3bo7bo9b2ob
2o$17bobo73b2o12bobo19b4o$16b2ob2o73b2o10b2ob2o11b2o6b2o$93bo27b2o$
123bo$89b2o$88bobo$90bo2$112bo$111bo10b2o$104b2o5b3o8bobo$103bobo16bo$
105bo4$125b2o$125bobo$125bo!
I have a fairly vague notion that it could be made using a bi-block as the base:
Code: Select all
x = 12, y = 14, rule = B3/S23
o$4o$ob2o$3bo2b2ob2o$3bo2b2ob2o$2b2o$4bo$3bo3b2ob2o$7bo3bo$8bobo$7b2ob
2o$7bo3bo$8bobo$7b2ob2o!
Also I have an even vaguer idea that the spark at the top left could be made from a tri-block. See this pattern after 5 generations:
Code: Select all
x = 8, y = 4, rule = B3/S23
bo2$2ob2ob2o$2ob2ob2o!
None of this has lead to anything concrete so far.
And just for fun I made a stable dart to glider converter:
Code: Select all
x = 125, y = 108, rule = LifeHistory
33.2A3.2A$31.3A.A2.2A$30.A4.A$30.A2.2A.4A$29.2A.A.A.A2.A$30.A.A.A.A$
30.A.A.2A$31.A2$44.2A$35.2A7.A$35.2A5.A.A$42.2A$48.A$47.A.A7.A$48.A6.
3A$54.A34.A.2A$54.2A33.2A.A$96.2A$9.A22.2A55.3A4.A$9.3A21.A55.A2.A4.A
6.A$12.A17.3A58.2A3.2A4.3A$11.2A17.A70.A$34.2A25.2A38.2A$35.A25.2A$2A
.2A30.A.A$2A.A32.2A$3.A$3.3A4.2A$.2A3.A3.2A37.2A$A2.4A42.A.A6.2A53.A$
2A.A15.2A30.A6.A19.2A31.3A$.A2.3A12.A.A29.2A6.A17.A.A30.A$.A5.A13.A
36.2A17.A32.2A$2.5A14.2A53.2A$4.A3$47.2A$47.A.A70.A$49.A68.3A$49.2A
66.A$117.2A3$88.2A$89.A8.2A$86.3A8.A.A18.2A$86.A10.A20.2A$96.2A$37.2A
$37.2A70.2A$109.2A$101.2A$102.A$102.A.A$103.2A$48.2A$27.2A19.A$28.A
17.A.A$28.A.A15.2A$29.2A4.A$34.A.A$34.A.A$35.A10.2A$46.A.A$48.A$48.2A
$33.2A$34.A$31.3A51.A$31.A53.3A35.2A$88.A34.2A$87.2A2$58.2A$59.A58.2A
$59.A.A56.2A$60.2A60.2A$122.2A2$63.C14.2A$62.C.C13.2A36.2A$63.2C36.2A
13.2A$101.A.A$103.A$91.2A10.2A$91.A$53.A27.2A9.3A$53.3A26.A11.A$56.A
24.A$55.2A24.2A7$63.A$62.A.A$61.A3.A$62.3A2$60.2A3.2A$58.A3.A.A3.A$
57.2A3.A.A3.2A$56.A5.A.A5.A$57.A.2A.A.A.2A.A!
I think it's fairly neat but I'm sure it is possible to do better. A fairly non-systematic search also turned up these possibilities:
Code: Select all
x = 223, y = 49, rule = LifeHistory
10.2A$10.2A210.A$220.2A$221.2A2$10.3D$11.D$9.3D$187.2A$187.2A4$187.3D
$188.D$186.3D8$9.2A$9.2A2$2A.A7.D$A.2A6.3D$9.2D2.D3$100.C$99.C.C3D$
100.2C2.D86.C$14.2C86.3D85.C.C$13.C2.C173.C.C$14.2C175.C$88.A9.A77.A
9.A$88.3A6.A.A76.3A6.A.A$9.A9.A71.A4.A3.A78.A4.A3.A$9.3A6.A.A69.2A5.
3A78.2A5.3A$12.A4.A3.A$11.2A5.3A74.2A3.2A81.2A3.2A$93.A3.A.A3.A77.A3.
A.A3.A$16.2A3.2A69.2A3.A.A3.2A75.2A3.A.A3.2A$14.A3.A.A3.A66.A5.A.A5.A
73.A5.A.A5.A$13.2A3.A.A3.2A66.A.2A.A.A.2A.A75.A.2A.A.A.2A.A$12.A5.A.A
5.A$13.A.2A.A.A.2A.A!
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 3:30 pm
by simsim314
If someone manage to redesign the front so that the wing can be symmetrical again, this back spark will also work well with 7 gliders.
Code: Select all
x = 257, y = 49, rule = LifeHistory
243.A$243.A.A$243.2A3$246.A$245.A.2A$244.2A.2A$245.A$245.A2.A$245.2A.
2A$248.A$239.3A$239.A2.A4.A$241.2A.A$237.A6.A3.A$237.A$238.A3.A3.3A$
61.A177.A2.A3.A$60.3A180.A.6A$59.5A178.2A.6A$.3D8.4D42.2A3.2A29.3D3.
3D7.5D13.D$D3.D7.D3.D3.D15.D20.2A5.2A17.D9.D3.D.D3.D8.D5.D9.D$4.D7.D
3.D20.D20.2A3.2A18.D13.D5.D8.D10.4D.D2.D3.4D13.D82.4A4.2A.2A4.4A$3.D
8.4D4.D8.5D4.D20.A3.A17.5D9.2D4.2D9.D5.D3.D5.D.D3.D18.D80.A4.A3.A3.A
3.A4.A$2.D9.D7.D16.D45.D13.D5.D8.D5.D3.D5.3D4.3D7.5D4.D79.2A3.A4.A.A
4.A3.2A$.D10.D7.D15.D22.2A.2A19.D9.D3.D.D3.D8.D5.D3.D5.D2.D6.D14.D80.
A4.A3.2A.2A3.A4.A$5D7.D7.2D38.3A31.3D3.3D9.D5.2D3.4D.D3.D.4D14.D82.A
2.A13.A2.A$61.A174.2A6.3A6.2A$244.3A$85.D3.3D57.2D34.D58.3A$84.D3.D3.
D27.D11.D17.D17.D17.D53.2A3.A3.2A$84.D3.D5.D3.D2.D.D3.D.D3.3D2.5D.D.
2D9.4D2.4D3.D9.D3.D7.4D3.3D4.D52.3A3.A3.3A$84.D4.3D2.D3.D.D.D.D.D.D.D
.D3.D3.D3.2D2.D3.D3.D5.D3.D3.D9.D3.D3.D3.D3.D.D3.D3.D51.2A.A3.A3.A.2A
$84.D7.D.D3.D.D.D.D.D.D.D.5D3.D3.D7.D3.D5.D3.D3.D9.D.D.D3.D3.D3.D.D3.
D3.D51.3A9.3A$84.D3.D3.D.D3.D.D3.D.D3.D.D7.D3.D7.D3.D5.D3.D3.D9.2D.2D
3.D3.D3.D.D3.D3.D49.2A15.2A$85.D3.3D3.4D.D3.D.D3.D2.4D4.2D.D7.2D3.4D
2.4D3.2D8.D3.D3.2D2.D3.D2.4D2.D50.2A15.2A$98.D83.D54.A.2A9.2A.A$95.3D
81.3D$238.A13.A$235.A2.2A11.2A2.A$235.A.A15.A.A$239.A11.A$237.2A.A9.A
.2A$235.4A.A9.A.4A$234.3A17.3A$239.2A9.2A$238.A2.A7.A2.A$239.2A9.2A!
@dvgrn - for some reason I thought it's not allowed to attached .rle in the forum posts. Fixed now.
As for the the gun construction, I actually enjoyed to build it with some preliminary script, that reads the gliders and places the guns accordingly, unfortunately I didn't manage to find any good placement algorithm. As for orientation of the gun, if it's a single gun line, the orientation of the bottom salvos is forced, didn't checked for the upper ones. Also probably there would be no problem to place guns on both sides, it's just more headache. Probably the optimized script, for glider salvo -> gun generator, will eventually do optimization on both sides.
For now I don't really have a "finished" script, it's more like few functions, that I turn on and off - I've created four arms separately with a script, manually setting order for each glider, and then stitch them all together by hand. So there is no "final script". Just wanted to check how hard it is to create a gun with a script, and it's kinda very hard, the major issue is the gun placement order - it's becomes sort of "voodoo" at some point. Not that guns based on trial and error can't be build with scripts, but it's a bit more complicated than what I initially thought.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 3:52 pm
by Extrementhusiast
Kazyan wrote:That first spark reminds me of how
moose antlers typically form, if anyone's willing to chase that particular rabbit.
I took a preliminary look at that and didn't get too far, but it eventually led to a twelve-glider savings:
Code: Select all
x = 37, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
11bo13bo$9bobo13bobo$bo8b2o13b2o8bo$2bo31bo$3o11b2o5b2o11b3o$14b2o5b2o
2$10bo15bo$11bo2b2o5b2o2bo$9b3o2bobo3bobo2b3o$15b2o3b2o$6b2o21b2o$5bob
o21bobo$7bo21bo$10b2o13b2o$11b2o6b2o3b2o$10bo8bobo4bo$19bo2$17b2o$16bo
bo$18bo!
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 5:02 pm
by Kazyan
That makes things considerably easier!
I wonder...those of you who are running symmetrical versions of apgsearch, can you look for instances of xs10_drz32? Currently going through my 60 instances in asymmetical runs on the off-chance of a mirror-able 1-sided synthesis. We might be able to skip all this artificial synthesis of the mirrored snake-siamese-snake if there's an easy natural method.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 5:33 pm
by Extrementhusiast
Another eight gliders off:
Code: Select all
x = 37, y = 29, rule = B3/S23
5bobo21bobo$6b2o21b2o$6bo23bo4$obo31bobo$b2o31b2o$bo33bo3$12bo11bo$13b
o9bo$5bo5b3o9b3o5bo$5b2o23b2o$4bobo5bo11bo5bobo$12b2o9b2o$11bobo9bobo
4$7b3o17b3o$9bo12b2o3bo$8bo12b2o5bo$23bo2$14b2o$15b2o$14bo!
EDIT: Using the block-on-block-on-block shaves off another glider:
Code: Select all
x = 106, y = 39, rule = B3/S23
40bobo$41b2o$41bo2$50bo$41bobo7b2o$42b2o6b2o$37bo4bo$35bobo$36b2o11bo
5bobo$49bobo3b2o$49b2o5bo5bobo$62b2o$63bo3bo$4bo61bo$5bo60b3o$3b3o3bo
5bo$10b2ob2o21bo$3o6b2o3b2o18bobo7b2ob2ob2o$2bo3b2o27b2o7b2ob2ob2o$bo
3bobo$7bo$11b2ob2o32b2ob2o$11bo3bo32bo3bo7bo$12bobo34bobo7b2o9bo2bo$
11b2ob2o32b2ob2o6bobo7bo$11bo3bo20b2o10bo3bo16bo3bo$12bobo20bobo11bobo
11b2o4b4o24b3o$11b2ob2o21bo10b2ob2o10bobo31b3o$63bo32bo3bo$32bo$32b2o
62bo3bo$31bobo59bob2o3b2obo$46b2o44bob2obobob2obo$45bobo43bo3b3ob3o3bo
$47bo16bo27b2obobobobob2o$49b3o11b2o4bo$49bo13bobo2b2o$50bo17bobo!
With both of these improvements, the minimum period is now 130.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 6:21 pm
by Kazyan
p169 appears to be the minimum now (pardon the LifeHistory):
Code: Select all
x = 212, y = 154, rule = LifeHistory
9.4B$10.3BA3.2B$8.3BABA3.3B$8.4B2A3.4B$9.4B5.4B$5.B4.4B5.3BA$5.2B4.3B
A5.3BA$5.3B4.ABA6.3A$5.2BAB4.2A$6.2B2A123.4B2.4B5.4B$7.2A123.BA2B2.A
3B5.4B$131.2A2B3.ABA5.4B$132.2A4.2A5.A3B3.B$145.ABA3.2B$145.2A3.3B$
149.ABAB$5.B143.2AB$5.2B6.2B135.A$5.BAB5.2BA$5.2B2A4.ABA3.2B111.2B$6.
2A6.2A2.BABA109.ABAB$19.B2A109.2AB$20.A111.A2$21.2BA107.A2B$21.3BA
105.A3B$22.3A105.3A4$16.2BA117.A2B$16.3BA115.A3B$17.3A115.3A3$28.B97.
B$27.BAB95.BAB$27.2B2A93.2A2B5.B$28.2A95.2A5$52.2BAB$53.2B2A3.2B$51.
3B2A4.3B$51.4B5.4B$52.4B5.4B$48.B4.2BAB5.BABA$48.2B4.2B2A5.B2A$48.2BA
4.2A7.A$48.3BA$49.3A38.A3B2.BA2B5.4B$89.A3B2.2A2B5.4B$89.3A4.2A5.BA2B
$102.2A2B3.B$103.2A3.2B$107.A2B$107.ABA$48.B58.2A$48.BA6.A$48.2BA6.2A
$48.3A5.2A5.A25.A$61.A.A25.A.A$62.2A25.2A3$64.A.A21.A.A$65.2A21.2A$
65.A23.A4$59.A.A31.A.A$60.2A31.2A$60.A33.A3$71.A11.A$72.A9.A$64.A5.3A
9.3A5.A$64.2A23.2A34.3B$63.A.A5.A11.A5.A.A31.4AB80.2A$71.2A9.2A39.A3B
A79.2AB2A$70.A.A9.A.A38.A4B80.4A$124.A2BA81.2A$53.2A$54.2A3.A$53.A5.
2A5.3A17.3A$58.A.A7.A12.2A3.A$67.A12.2A5.A$82.A2$73.2A$74.2A24.2A$73.
A25.2A2B$100.BA2B$49.3A49.4B$48.3BA50.B3A$47.3BA52.A2B$46.4B54.AB$45.
2A2B56.B$44.2B2A$45.AB$45.B13.3A$58.3BA$57.3BA29.2A12.2A$56.4B30.ABA
10.2A2B2.2A$90.A3B10.BA2B2A2B$91.4B10.5BA2B14$21.3A107.3A$20.3BA107.A
3B$19.3BA5.3A93.3A5.A3B$19.3B5.3BA93.A3B5.3B$26.3BA95.A3B$11.2A13.3B
97.3B$10.ABA$9.3BA3.3A5.2A103.2A$9.3B3.3BA4.2B2A96.2A3.2A2B$9.2B3.3BA
4.2BAB97.ABA3.BA2B$14.3B5.3B98.A3B3.3B$23.B100.3B4.B$31.2A92.2B$30.AB
A109.2A$29.3BA109.ABA$29.3B110.A3B$7.2A20.2B112.4B$6.2B2A134.2B2A$5.
2BAB136.2A2B$4.4B138.BA2B$3.2A2B140.3B$2.ABAB142.2B$.3BA144.B$4B13.2A
$.2B13.2B2A$.B13.2BAB114.A12.2A$14.4B114.2AB11.ABA2.2A$13.4B115.ABAB
10.A3B.ABA$12.4B117.4B10.4BA3B$134.4B10.8B$135.4B10.8B!
169 would be great, but p180 might be a lot more compact due to how space-saving p30 technology is.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 6:28 pm
by apg
I wonder...those of you who are running symmetrical versions of apgsearch, can you look for instances of xs10_drz32?
Better yet: add the double snake-siamese-snake (mapping to itself) in the dictionary
decompositions, so that
pseudo_bangbang() doesn't separate it out into two snake-siamese-snakes. Then you can look for instances where this desirable pseudo-object appears. (The caching is useful not only from a performance standpoint.)
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 6:28 pm
by dvgrn
Extrementhusiast wrote:With both of these improvements, the minimum period is now 130.
Wow. That's progress. It's down to 39 gliders now? With still some vague hope that the mirrored snake-siamese-snake can be either built more efficiently, or replaced with something cheaper?
Sounds as if you have what you think is a minimal construction of the new initial 2ship+2block constellation. Could you post that pattern? Shaving another couple of ticks off the repeat time is probably wishful thinking, but period 128 is a nice round number (in base 2, anyway).
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 6:30 pm
by simsim314
Extrementhusiast wrote:With both of these improvements, the minimum period is now 130.
This is great! But don't you think that Snake pair + ignition spark will still work better?
After your improvement, it's still 14 glider for synth and 2 for ignition, ending up to be 16 gliders for the core handling. Snake pair is 8 gliders (and I guess it can be improved), and the ignition will probably cost 5-6 gliders at the most, this seems to be more efficient approach.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 6:55 pm
by Extrementhusiast
Kazyan wrote:p169 appears to be the minimum now (pardon the LifeHistory):
169 would be great, but p180 might be a lot more compact due to how space-saving p30 technology is.
This is accurate, because I screwed up on the minimum period calculation by making an assumption I wasn't supposed to make.
dvgrn wrote:Sounds as if you have what you think is a minimal construction of the new initial 2ship+2block constellation. Could you post that pattern?
It's moot now, with the 14-glider synthesis of the 20-bit pseudo, since the construction by that method takes at least 15 gliders.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 7:08 pm
by Kazyan
simsim314 wrote:After your improvement, it's still 14 glider for synth and 2 for ignition, ending up to be 16 gliders for the core handling. Snake pair is 8 gliders (and I guess it can be improved), and the ignition will probably cost 5-6 gliders at the most, this seems to be more efficient approach.
This doesn't fit beneath either of the methods to create the wings, but apparently you're onto something:
Code: Select all
x = 23, y = 20, rule = LifeHistory
9.2A.2A$9.A3.A$10.A.A$9.2A.2A2$8.A5.A$8.2A3.2A$7.A.A3.A.A2$.A19.A$.2A
17.2A$A.A17.A.A2$14.2A$14.A.A$14.A2$8.2A$7.A.A$9.A!
Your 2-pi method basically uses this thing, which should be easier to fit, provided that rare TL predecessor is can made from one side:
Code: Select all
x = 5, y = 10, rule = LifeHistory
2A.2A$A3.A$.A.A$2A.2A3$5A3$.3A!
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 8:16 pm
by simsim314
I've run my soup search and it returned snake pairs. Unfortunately they all come to the same basic mechanism, which costs at least 8 gliders or more, here are some examples:
Code: Select all
x = 25, y = 13, rule = B3/S23
15bo2bo$15bo3bo$16bobo$17bo2$22b2o$6bo9bo5b2o$5bobo6b4o$5b2o6b2o3bo$
12bo3b2o$13b4o$14bo!
Code: Select all
x = 17, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
$9b2o$5b2o2b2o$4bo2bo$6bo2$7b3o3b2o$7b3o2bo2bo$13b2o2$8b2o$8b3o$7bo2bo
$8b3o$8b2o!
Code: Select all
x = 26, y = 13, rule = B3/S23
2$4bo6b3o$4bo4b2obobo5b2o$4bo3bobo3bo4bo2bo$8bo3bobo5bobo$8bobob2o7bo$
9b3o3$8b3o!
Code: Select all
x = 30, y = 50, rule = B3/S23
12$13b2o$12bobo$15bo$15b2o$15b3o$10b2o3b2o$11b5o$12b3o$13bo2$4b2o$3bo
2bo$4b2o5$7b2o$7b2o13$13b2o$13bobo$14b2o!
I don't see anything useful here...
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 9:12 pm
by Kazyan
The top one allows a 5-glider method.
Code: Select all
x = 28, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
19bo$17b2o$18b2o4$14bo$14bobo$14b2o$26bo$12b2o11b2o$11b2o12bobo$13bo$
2o$b2o$o!
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 6th, 2014, 10:29 pm
by dvgrn
Kazyan wrote:p169 appears to be the minimum now (pardon the LifeHistory)...
169 would be great, but p180 might be a lot more compact due to how space-saving p30 technology is.
It's hard to compete with p30N, true. And now that we're below p231, we've lost the incredible Fx119-based edge shooter, and have to make do with simple SNG edge-shooters and suchlike, which have basically no clearance.
On the other hand, nobody has really stretched the abilities of bootstrapped Herschel conduits since the appearance of the Snark. Bootstrapping often produces guns that are thin diagonal rectangles, and Herschel factories work fine down to much lower periods. Something fairly stackable will turn out to be possible at p169, or whatever the minimum period turns out to be next! (Luckily it looks as if p169 is the limit for two independent reasons; the reactions are stacked optimally, and the darts are barely squeaking past the next incoming salvo anyway.)
One thing that
is getting difficult is the pure-glider version suitable for simsim314's shotgun builder script. Some of the salvos still have room to sneak a glider across:
Code: Select all
x = 441, y = 413, rule = B3/S23
10bo$11bo$9b3o3$11bo8bo$12bo5bobo$10b3o6b2o$4bobo$5b2o390bo$5bo384bobo
3bo$390b2o4b3o5bo$391bo11bo$403b3o$409bo$407b2o$408b2o$12bo$3bobo7bo$
4b2o5b3o3bo373bo$4bo13b2o369b2o$17b2o371b2o3$21bo367bo$19bobo367bobo$
20b2o367b2o4$16bo377bo$14bobo377bobo$15b2o377b2o4$25bobo355bobo$26b2o
355b2o$26bo357bo5$51bobo$52b2o$52bo2$61bo$52bobo7b2o$53b2o6b2o$48bo4bo
381bo$46bobo384b2o$47b2o299bo5bobo77b2o$348bobo3b2o$348b2o5bo5bobo$
361b2o$362bo3bo$365bo$365b3o2$47bo5bobo$45bobo6b2o4bo287bo$46b2o6bo6bo
285bo$59b3o285b3o3$62bo285bo$63b2o281b2o$62b2o283b2o4$57bo295bo$58b2o
291b2o$57b2o293b2o4$69bo271bo$67bobo271bobo$68b2o271b2o5$95bo$93bobo$
94b2o2$104bo$96bo8bo$94bobo6b3o$89bo5b2o295bo$90b2o299bo$89b2o216bo4bo
78b3o$305b2o5bobo$306b2o4b2o5bo$319bobo$319b2o$323bobo$323b2o$324bo$
88bo8bo$89b2o4bobo$88b2o6b2o3bobo201bobo$102b2o201b2o$102bo203bo2$105b
o199bo$106bo197bo$104b3o197b3o4$100bo209bo$101bo207bo$99b3o207b3o4$
110bo189bo$111b2o185b2o$110b2o187b2o5$136bo$137b2o$136b2o3$137bo7bobo$
138b2o6b2o$132bo4b2o7bo$133bo215bobo$131b3o130bo6bo77b2o$263bo5b2o79bo
$263b3o4b2o6bo$276b2o$277b2o$281bo$281bobo$281b2o$131bo6bo$132bo6b2o$
130b3o5b2o5bo117bo$143bobo117bobo$144b2o117b2o3$146bobo113bobo$147b2o
113b2o$147bo115bo4$141bobo123bobo$142b2o123b2o$142bo125bo3$153bo103bo$
154bo101bo$152b3o101b3o13$307bo$307bobo$307b2o67$312bo$311b2o$311bobo
3$244b2o$245b2o$244bo3$146bo117bo$146b2o115b2o$145bobo5bo103bo5bobo$
153b2o101b2o$152bobo101bobo2$135b2o$136b2o3bo$135bo5b2o5b3o109b3o$140b
obo7bo104b2o3bo$149bo104b2o5bo$256bo2$155b2o$156b2o116b2o$155bo117b2o$
275bo$131b3o$133bo143b3o$132bo144bo$278bo$127b2o$128b2o$127bo$141b3o$
143bo$142bo121b2o12b2o$264bobo10b2o4b2o$264bo14bo2b2o$284bo4$353b3o$
353bo$354bo2$202b2o$201bobo$203bo4$103b3o199b3o$105bo199bo$104bo5b3o
185b3o5bo$112bo185bo$111bo187bo$93b2o$92bobo$94bo3b3o5b2o195b2o$100bo
6b2o188b2o3b2o$99bo6bo190bobo4bo$297bo2$113b2o$112bobo201b2o$114bo201b
obo$316bo$89b2o$90b2o228b2o$89bo229b2o$321bo$85b2o$84bobo$86bo$99b2o$
100b2o$99bo207bo12b2o$306b2o12bobo2b2o$306bobo11bo4bobo$325bo4$396b2o$
395b2o$397bo2$160bo$160b2o$159bobo4$61b2o285b2o$62b2o283b2o$61bo6b2o
271b2o6bo$69b2o269b2o$68bo273bo$51bo$51b2o$50bobo3b2o6b2o279b2o$57b2o
4bobo274bo4bobo$56bo8bo273b2o4bo$339bobo2$71bo$71b2o286bo$70bobo285b2o
$358bobo$47b2o$46bobo313b2o$48bo313bobo$362bo$43bo$43b2o$42bobo$57b2o$
56bobo$58bo304bo$348b3o11b2o4bo$348bo13bobo2b2o$349bo17bobo4$438b2o$
438bobo$438bo3$117b3o$119bo$118bo3$19b2o369b2o$18bobo369bobo$20bo5b2o
355b2o5bo$25bobo355bobo$27bo355bo2$8b3o$10bo3b2o6bo365bo$9bo3bobo6b2o
363b2o$15bo5bobo357b3o3bobo$381bo$382bo2$28b3o$30bo369b3o$29bo370bo$5b
o395bo$5b2o398bo$4bobo397b2o$404bobo2$3o$2bo$bo13bo$15b2o$14bobo$391b
2o11b3o$390b2o12bo4b3o$392bo12bo3bo$410bo!
If the packing got any tighter it might be necessary to add a glider back to the recipe (horrors!) to build the LWSS.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 7th, 2014, 12:47 am
by Kazyan
I found a big stupid 7-glider way to make one of Simkin's back-sparks.
Code: Select all
x = 17, y = 20, rule = B3/S23
6b2ob2o$6bo3bo$7bobo$6b2ob2o3$8bo$7bobo$8bo2$2o13b2o$b2o11b2o$o15bo$9b
2o$9bobo$9bo2$7b2o$6bobo$8bo!
With this and the 5-glider snake-on-snake, darts now require only 45 gliders to synthesize.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 7th, 2014, 3:03 am
by simsim314
I suggest we wait until all major improvements will be introduced. With Kazyan snake on snake + back-spark it becomes 35 (5+7 instead previous 14+2) , and we probably will find something better for the spark.
EDIT To make 2pi to work we need one of two spraks emitted from G+2SL interaction:
Or this:
Code: Select all
x = 2, y = 3, rule = B3/S23
2o$bo$bo!
or this:
Code: Select all
x = 3, y = 3, rule = B3/S23
3o$b2o$2bo!
Any of these sparks produced by 2SL + G will be also cost effective, minimizing the waste on the right wing. The 2pi recipe should cost 5, as 1 glider should be enough for cleaning the mess.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 7th, 2014, 7:02 am
by codeholic
Kazyan wrote:I found a big stupid 7-glider way to make one of Simkin's back-sparks.
It conflicted with the right wing synthesis. I fixed it by moving 2 gliders, but it increased repeat time:
Code: Select all
x = 39, y = 40, rule = B3/S23
9bobo$10b2o$10bo2$19bo$10bobo7b2o$11b2o6b2o$6bo4bo8bo$4bobo$5b2o7bo5bo
bo$14bobo3b2o$14b2o5bo5bobo$27b2o$28bo3bo$31bo$31b3o$11b2ob2ob2o$5bo5b
2ob2ob2o$3bobo$4b2o19bo$15b2ob2o4b2o$15bo3bo4bobo$5b2o9bobo14bo2bo$4bo
bo8b2ob2o8b2o2bo$6bo21bobobo3bo$28bo3b4o$bo15bo$b2o13bobo$obo14bo2$9b
2o13b2o$10b2o11b2o5bo5b2o$9bo15bo3b2o5bobo$18b2o9bobo4bo$18bobo$18bo2$
16b2o$15bobo$17bo!
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 7th, 2014, 12:48 pm
by chris_c
A possible method to get the NW spark from a bi-block instead of tri-block:
Code: Select all
x = 11, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
3bo$ob2o$2b2o2b2ob2o$o2bo2b2ob2o$3bo!
And here is an even simpler method but unfortunately it conflicts with the left wing:
Code: Select all
x = 9, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
2o$bo$4b2ob2o$2o2b2ob2o$2o!
EDIT: this looks more promising since the boat + block combination was constructed in 3 gliders in the very first incarnation of the dart synythesis:
Code: Select all
x = 6, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
2o$o$o$bo$obob2o$b2ob2o!
EDIT2: No. Momentarily confused myself there. It would need this:
Code: Select all
x = 9, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
2o$o$o$bo$obob2ob2o$b2ob2ob2o!
which I guess is not going to work out any cheaper than before.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 7th, 2014, 4:20 pm
by Extrementhusiast
I believe a gencols search for a different right wing and/or a different right front end is in order.
Re: How about a dart synthesis?
Posted: December 8th, 2014, 9:39 am
by simsim314
codeholic wrote:Kazyan wrote:I found a big stupid 7-glider way to make one of Simkin's back-sparks.
It conflicted with the right wing synthesis. I fixed it by moving 2 gliders, but it increased repeat time
The repeat time is anyway mainly bounded by collision between the front and newly arriving gliders.
This two other options, might allow placing the 2pi recipe, however the recipe itself is very tight and might require 6 gliders.
Code: Select all
x = 118, y = 40, rule = B3/S23
9bobo72bobo$10b2o73b2o$10bo74bo2$19bo74bo$10bobo7b2o63bobo7b2o$11b2o6b
2o65b2o6b2o$6bo4bo8bo60bo4bo8bo$4bobo72bobo$5b2o7bo5bobo57b2o7bo5bobo$
14bobo3b2o67bobo3b2o$14b2o5bo5bobo59b2o5bo5bobo$27b2o73b2o$28bo3bo70bo
3bo$31bo74bo$31b3o72b3o$11b2ob2ob2o67b2ob2ob2o$5bo5b2ob2ob2o61bo5b2ob
2ob2o$3bobo72bobo$4b2o19bo53b2o19bo$15b2ob2o4b2o64b2ob2o4b2o$15bo3bo4b
obo63bo3bo4bobo$5b2o9bobo14bo2bo43b2o9bobo14bo2bo$4bobo8b2ob2o8b2o2bo
46bobo8b2ob2o8b2o2bo$6bo21bobobo3bo44bo21bobobo3bo$28bo3b4o67bo3b4o$bo
15bo58bo15bo$b2o13bobo57b2o13bobo12bo$obo14bo20b2o35bobo14bo12b2o$37b
2o66bobo$9b2o13b2o13bo44b2o13b2o$10b2o11b2o7b3o50b2o11b2o15b2o$9bo15bo
6bo51bo15bo14bobo$18b2o13bo59b2o20bo$18bobo72bobo$18bo74bo2$16b2o73b2o
$15bobo72bobo$17bo74bo!
Anyway I'm sure there is a better way for the right wing spark synth, than the current 7 (!) gliders solution.
---
I must say we're pretty close to optimal here. If we manage to squeeze a bit more on the right and back, and the front looks pretty optimized, so I don't expect more than 4 gliders improvement, with the existing sparks.