CGOL patterns as NFTs

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pcallahan
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by pcallahan »

dvgrn wrote: September 5th, 2024, 7:45 am Some people find the idea of NFTs based on CGoL patterns to be harmless, maybe entertaining, maybe even a useful way to make interesting CGoL discoveries visible to a wider audience. Some people have wondered whether NFTs might be a way to encourage more people to put more resources into making new CGoL discoveries.
I think my comments on this thread mostly fell into the "harmless" camp but today I would be more emphatic. Haven't NFTs gone the way of Beanie Babies at this point? You'll have to take my word for it (or not) but I wrote my last sentence before finding that link, and it was my first Google result for "Beanie Babies" in quotes.

Some diehards may believe they can make money at NFTs, but most people have moved on to the next trend. There is also a new way to make NFTs, namely AI art, that has more popular appeal than CGoL patterns. A novice can use that to flood the "market", which has never been demonstrated to be a market at all. Maybe I am missing something, but I have never understood why any reasonable person believes (a) that there is demand for NFTs or that (b) supply will not exceed whatever demand there may be by orders of magnitude.

As I think I said at the time (or similar): You can make money with an old basketball shoe if Michael Jordan once wore it, and you can prove that. You might even if he just happened to sign it. If it's mass-marketed with his name as the brand (and I may be dating myself) then it becomes more important for it to function as a shoe. If I put my name on the shoe, nobody's going to care at all unless it's a good shoe. An NFT has no intrinsic value and might be propped up by artificial scarcity. At this point, though, the presumed value is so esoteric that you are probably better off selling Beanie Babies.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by Haycat2009 »

dvgrn wrote: October 7th, 2021, 8:22 am Only Stephen Wolfram has ever been silly enough to violate that rule...
What exactly was patented? And why was it done?
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by dvgrn »

Haycat2009 wrote: October 21st, 2024, 5:58 am
dvgrn wrote: October 7th, 2021, 8:22 am Only Stephen Wolfram has ever been silly enough to violate that rule...
What exactly was patented? And why was it done?
Patented? Nothing. The rule that I said was violated was ""don't make something fun into something horribly painfully complicated by getting the lawyers involved". The ways that Wolfram did that were to obtain a court order against Matthew Cook, and to threaten to sue various other people and entities in relation to the publication of information about Cook's Rule-110 universality proof.

Various perspectives on the story can be found online -- this summary, for example, is very detailed and (I think) comes to reasonable conclusions.

Mind you, I don't necessarily agree with those conclusions, because I'm not really entirely reasonable about lawyers. When people with a lot of money are using the legal system against people without a lot of money, it puts a huge amount of stress on the people with less money, to the point where the contest really can't be said to be fair, no matter how it comes out.

So my personal somewhat crackpot opinion is that Wolfram should really have thought a lot more carefully about the long-term consequences before paying lawyers to do anything. Once the cat was out of the bag and Matthew Cook had gone to that conference and made his findings public, it seems to me Wolfram should have known that that cat couldn't really be put into that bag again -- all that he could do would be to threaten to sue people for three and a half years... and, as a direct consequence of that, permanently lose the trust and goodwill of a very large fraction of the academic and hobbyist CA research community.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by confocaloid »

Haycat2009 wrote: October 21st, 2024, 5:58 am
dvgrn wrote: October 7th, 2021, 8:22 am Only Stephen Wolfram has ever been silly enough to violate that rule...
What exactly was patented? And why was it done?
Here is an interesting review: Stephen Wolfram, A New Kind of Science

Quoting several parts that are relevant to this discussion:
a review by Cosma Shalizi wrote: [...]
There is one new result in this book which is genuinely impressive, though not so impressive as Wolfram makes it out to be. This is a proof that one of the elementary CAs, Rule 110, can support universal computation. To explain this needs a slight detour through the foundations of computer science.
[...]
[...]
[...]
The easiest way to show that something is a universal computer is to show that it can emulate something you already know is a universal computer, like a Turing machine. Now, it's been known since the work of Emil Post in the 1930s that something called a Post tag system (see here or here for more or less mathematical explanations) is Turing-equivalent. A New Kind of Science describes a new formal system, called a cyclic tag system (Wolfram drops "Post"), which is equivalent to a Post tag system, and so to a universal Turing machine. Finally, there is a sketch of how propagating structures ("gliders") in Rule 110 can be used to implement a cyclic tag system, assuming you had an infinite lattice to play with.

This is a genuinely new result. Rule 110 is the simplest CA (in terms of the number of states and the rule radius) which is known to support universal computation. (Indeed, in his 1985 book on cellular automata, Wolfram declared that universal computation in an elementary CA was obviously impossible.) However, lots of things are capable of universal computation — there's less interest in this kind of result than there was in, say, 1970. In 1990, for instance, Cristopher Moore devised a kind of idealized pin-ball machine which is capable of universal computation. This result, like the one about rule 110, is neat for people who care about dynamical models of universal computation — on the order of a thousand scientists and mathematicians world wide. What Wolfram wants to claim is that, since one universal computer is equivalent to another, by studying the behavior of one we learn things which are true of all others (true), therefore Rule 110 is as complex as anything in the universe, and all intelligent life, including, perhaps, the gods must have much in common. This, to put it mildly, does not follow. Wolfram even goes on to refute post-modernism on this basis; I won't touch that except to say that I'd have paid a lot to see Wolfram and Jacques Derrida go one-on-one.

The real problem with this result, however, is that it is not Wolfram's. He didn't invent cyclic tag systems, and he didn't come up with the incredibly intricate construction needed to implement them in Rule 110. This was done rather by one Matthew Cook, while working in Wolfram's employ under a contract with some truly remarkable provisions about intellectual property. In short, Wolfram got to control not only when and how the result was made public, but to claim it for himself. In fact, his position was that the existence of the result was a trade secret. Cook, after a messy falling-out with Wolfram, made the result, and the proof, public at a 1998 conference on CAs. (I attended, and was lucky enough to read the paper where Cook goes through the construction, supplying the details missing from A New Kind of Science.) Wolfram, for his part, responded by suing or threatening to sue Cook (now a penniless graduate student in neuroscience), the conference organizers, the publishers of the proceedings, etc. (The threat of legal action from Wolfram that I mentioned at the beginning of this review arose because we cited Cook as the person responsible for this result.)

Of course, lots of professors add their names to their students' papers, and many lab-chiefs owe their enviable publication records to the fact that they automatically add their names to the end of every manuscript prepared under their command. If Wolfram did that, he would merely be perpetuating one of the more common abuses of the current scientific community. But to deny Cook any authorship, and to threaten people with lawsuits to keep things quiet, is indeed very low. [...]
[...]
[...]
[...]
Let me try to sum up. On the one hand, we have a large number of true but commonplace ideas, especially about how simple rules can lead to complex outcomes, and about the virtues of toy models. On the other hand, we have a large mass of dubious speculations (many of them also unoriginal). We have, finally, a single new result of mathematical importance, which is not actually the author's. Everything is presented as the inspired fruit of a lonely genius, delivering startling insights in isolation from a blinkered and philistine scientific community. We have been this way before.
[...]
[...]
[...]
This brings me to the core of what I dislike about Wolfram's book. It is going to set the field back by years. On the one hand, scientists in other fields are going to think we're all crackpots like him. On the other hand, we're going to be deluged, again, with people who fall for this kind of nonsense. I expect to have to waste a lot of time in the next few years de-programming students who'll have read A New Kind of Science before knowing any better.

I don't object to speculation or radical proposals, even to radical, grandiose speculative proposals; I just want there to be arguments to back them up, reasons to take them seriously. I don't object to scientists displaying personality in their work, or staking out positions in vigorous opposition to much of the opinion in their field, and engaging in heated debate; I do object to ignoring criticism and claiming credit for commonplaces, especially before popular audiences who won't pick up on it. [...]
[...]
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by Anivec »

simsim314 wrote: October 3rd, 2021, 7:33 pm
I definitely think we should discuss this. Should we? The main reason is to promote the research - monetize it, and thus bringing wider audience from other communities, and being able to earn good buck from doing CGOL research as main occupation. This would promote the field a lot. Just like any artist that makes money from minting NFTs.
hkoenig wrote: October 3rd, 2021, 10:00 am So why should a non-believer respect the supposed "uniqueness" associated with something digital?
This is very simple to answer. Would you pay the same money if someone will draw the exact copy of the same painting? This is not about copy rights but about ownership. if you can own paper money, which are completely useless pieces of paper, you can own also virtual money. The money you have and own in your bank account is completely virtual. Bitcoin chain is way more reliable than your bank, and it does the exact same thing. NFTs is just the next step, allowing you to own not a single number but another property like cgol pattern. If you can own 100$ printed by US government, you can own Gosper's glider gun minted by Gosper. This is all virtual ownership for a while now. The US government doesn't even prints money, they just add several trillions to their bank account. They mint dollars.
You’d probably make MORE money by actually solving CA problems rather than creating more problems that people are forced to solve for no pay. Mike Playle, for example, is willing to offer some money for the next person who finds a fast cc snark.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by otismo »

what we should really be talking about here is

Digital Property

I can make a CGoL Pattern ( and it does not matter if it is noteworthy or not )

and by convention, by the strict rules of a small obscure Academic Community

this Pattern is Public Domain and free to the general public - because we are in agreement that this is so.

But we exist within a greater community where there is a whole body of Legal Precedent

in regards to Digital Property. This is why one Steven Wolfram can upset a lot of people.

And dvgrn and his "hacker culture" can get all bent out of shape.

I can take Michael Simkin's Glider Gun and put my blockic signature on it

"Otis Arron Schmakel Presents Conway's Game of Life"

and I have just "created" a digital property; and if I make an NFT out of it,

I may be able to put it in an auction at Christie's.

The real question here is, What is protecting Michael Simkin's Property Rights ?

I actually made two Patterns as "test cases" :
ArtDeco-DiGiClock.rle
contains the file that went viral on the internet
(1.59 MiB) Downloaded 231 times
In-The-Garage.rle
contains a Pattern by Jormungant - and some by Harley-Davidson
(1.09 MiB) Downloaded 205 times
Last edited by otismo on October 26th, 2024, 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by confocaloid »

otismo wrote: October 26th, 2024, 3:45 pm what we should really be talking about here is
[...]
[...]
The real question here is, What is protecting Michael Simkin's Property Rights ?
The way I see it, this question should really be their headache (should they choose to care about it, in this particular sense), rather than the question becoming a headache of the entire local community on this website.

Quite the opposite of "what we should really be talking about here".
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by otismo »

confocaloid wrote: October 26th, 2024, 3:52 pm
otismo wrote: October 26th, 2024, 3:45 pm what we should really be talking about here is
[...]
[...]
The real question here is, What is protecting Michael Simkin's Property Rights ?
The way I see it, this question should really be their headache (should they choose to care about it, in this particular sense), rather than the question becoming a headache of the entire local community on this website.

Quite the opposite of "what we should really be talking about here".
the body of Legal Precedent and the Lawyers will decide in Court

( I feel I understand the concerns of dvgrn et al perfectly )

but this Community will decide nothing unless it takes some further initiative...

@ confocaloid

are you saying that I can take any Pattern made by you ( and by anyone else in the Community )

and sell it if I am able to do so ?
Last edited by otismo on October 26th, 2024, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by confocaloid »

otismo wrote: October 26th, 2024, 4:04 pm [...]
but this Community will decide nothing unless it takes some further initiative...
The way I see it, that's a fundamentally misguided attitude.

People in the local community have the choice how to allocate their time and other resources.
  • People in the local community may choose to remain CA enthusiasts, and spend their time and other resources exploring Life and other cellular automata, investigating the underlying mathematics, ideas, concepts, finding interesting reactions, constructing interesting patterns, and so on, and so forth.
  • Alternatively, some people may choose to stop being enthusiasts, and instead to become obsessively worried about what happens if some other not-quite-enthusiasts will do something that doesn't really align with the ideas behind Life/CA in the first place.
You cannot really decide what someone else will do, and you cannot really decide on the future of the local community.
Likewise for example dvgrn cannot really decide what other people will do and what happens with the entire community in future.
The choice is who you are, and who you choose to be in the existing situation.
otismo wrote: October 26th, 2024, 4:04 pm [...]
are you saying that I can take any Pattern made by you ( and by anyone else in the Community )

and sell it if I am able to do so ?
... and accept all the consequences of that your choice (whatever they happen to be), both predictable and unpredictable.

When someone is trying to sell their hobby, they risk losing a hobby.
hkoenig wrote: April 26th, 2021, 11:33 pm [...]
If these people think they somehow are going to "own" these patterns they've "minted", they are welcome to their delusions.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by otismo »

I believe the Community ought to be busy setting some Legal Precedents that address their concerns -

before it is all decided for them...

How do we shape the world we exist in ?

Nobel did it by getting a patent

Einstein did it by not getting a patent

Nobel most likely had the best lawyers money could buy

Einstein couldn't care less, and probably was a hacker

( actually Einstein wrote the letter to FDR that led to the Manhattan Project -

knowing that Germany was full of hackers just like him )

In our culture, "monetization" mainly occurs in the Stock Market

one ought to embrace one's culture and not feel alienated by it...
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by confocaloid »

I cannot really decide what you could or should do, and I cannot really decide on the future of the local community.
Several other people already posted their thoughts here and elsewhere. More was linked to. If neither of that looked convincing to you, probably my thoughts will not change much.

However, I guess my suggestion is to spend less time and efforts thinking about ways of getting money from something that's basically other people naturally being curious about Life/CA and trying to explore and understand related things.

Especially my suggestion is to spend much less time and efforts talking about "patents" and "monetization" and "lawyers" and what have you, ad nauseam, to the point when the entire situation starts to look as repeating attempts to undermine the environment, making it unreasonably uncomfortable for the actual enthusiasts (whose curiosity about Life/CA is the reason why this website exists in the first place).

Honesty is the best policy (and is mentioned in the forum rules, among other things).
otismo wrote: October 26th, 2024, 4:22 pm [...]
How do we shape the world we exist in ?
[...]
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by hth3 »

Since CGOL is Turing complete, if you make a computer pattern, and then you put a copyrighted or patented program/technique on the computer's ROM, would the pattern count as copyrighted or patented? (Disclaimer: I'm not implying I support any side or response.)
I would argue copyright is fundamentally pretty flawed.
Again, this is pretty controversial, and I really don't plan to dive very deep into this right now.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by b-engine »

hth3 wrote: December 18th, 2025, 4:10 am Since CGOL is Turing complete, if you make a computer pattern, and then you put a copyrighted or patented program/technique on the computer's ROM, would the pattern count as copyrighted or patented? (Disclaimer: I'm not implying I support any side or response.)
I would argue copyright is fundamentally pretty flawed.
Again, this is pretty controversial, and I really don't plan to dive very deep into this right now.
Related:
PK22 wrote: August 22nd, 2025, 4:28 pm

CGoL and other CAs are super niche domains. There are simply too few Life and CA enthusiasts for this to really matter.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by dvgrn »

b-engine wrote: December 18th, 2025, 4:50 am CGoL and other CAs are super niche domains. There are simply too few Life and CA enthusiasts for this to really matter.
Yup -- long story short, a good chunk of the community has always claimed that CA patterns are mathematical objects, inherently un-copyrightable and therefore in the public domain.

Various legal systems around the world are plenty convoluted enough and susceptible enough to plau$ible argument$ by high-powered lawyers, that it's perfectly possible that some court case in some jurisdiction might decide that some particular CA pattern is patentable / copyrightable after all. Which would set a terrible precedent. We have so far mostly avoided setting any terrible legal precedents.

Our best defense against this kind of unfortunate outcome is simply to be careful to never attach any significant amount of money to any CA patterns. That way we will never attract the attentions of any high-powered lawyers, and nobody will bother to open any legal proceedings about copyright infringements by CA patterns -- there just obviously won't be any money in it.

We've done really well at this for the last 55 years -- or maybe I mean 80 years, since von Neumann's original CA design. Let's see if we can make it to the 100-year mark!
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

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Last edited by Neocaridina on January 30th, 2026, 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: CGOL patterns as NFTs

Post by b-engine »

I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know works in public domain can't been copyrighted.
Those NFTs are artworks based on the patterns, not the patterns themselves.
Attribution of public domain works isn't necessary.

EDIT: the same problem arise from selling open source (or free as in freedom) software/script as NFT.
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