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Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 1:19 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
Moosey wrote: October 12th, 2020, 9:28 pm
Saka wrote: October 12th, 2020, 8:08 am
I definitely do not know all english dialects, but usually I hear "hot" as
[hɒt] or [hɔt] (I pronounce it the latter) (I've also heard some replace the t with a glottal stop ʔ but that's not what we're talking about here).
I'm quite sure though, that there probably is an english dialect/accent somewhere that pronounces it [hot].
I definitely use ɑ rather than ɒ in "hot". Maybe we should just make it so that ɑ/ɒ are allophones?
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: October 12th, 2020, 9:58 am
Ok then, I think using /t̠ʃ/ gets rid of the problem of c being able to be /s/ and /k/. We should keep using sh as /ʃ/ and I'm totally fine with using zh as /ʒ/, but then j should be /dʒ/ [presumably the affricate]
Imo /d͡ʒ/ should be "dzh" (/dʒ/ as a pair of consonants rather than an affricate would be "d-zh") ; that way "j" can be /j/.
Also (to boka) basically nobody (or at least apparently neither of saka and I) in this thread knows serbian cyrillic, can you
please use ipa? just copy-paste from a
chart?
Ok if we use j as /j/, then what sounds does y make? BokaBB had said that the language should be "phonetic", but has failed to give a definition of what that exactly means. And are we okay with c being /t̠ʃ/? I don't understand Cyrillic Serbian either.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 4:14 am
by BokaBB
I will try to install IPA on computer.
I am really not knowing much about English phonology,so don't blame me about that.
I want y to be /j/ because it looks better I think.
I don't want dzh (again,I will install IPA) to be in the language.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 5:13 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
BokaBB wrote: October 13th, 2020, 4:14 am
I will try to install IPA on computer.
I am really not knowing much about English phonology,so don't blame me about that.
I want y to be /j/ because it looks better I think.
I don't want dzh (again,I will install IPA) to be in the language.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
There's no need to install IPA, Wikipedia and other sources already have it (though it would be better of you to do download it than do nothing).
Edit: List of letters and letter combinations whose sounds need to be determined:
a
c
j
zh
au
Edit2: Can you please write down the times you are active in GMT? This thread is kind of slow and being active at the same time can speed it up maybe.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 6:54 am
by BokaBB
I will not be avaiable every day now due to jobs,so beware of the slow thread.
A:/a/
C:/ts/ or /c/
J:absent
Zh:that weird z that I can't input
Au:doubtlessly /au/
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 8:23 am
by Moosey
and y, and e maybe?
BokaBB wrote: October 13th, 2020, 6:54 am
Zh:that weird z that I can't input
just copy-paste from
https://www.ipachart.com/
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 10:33 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
Moosey wrote: October 13th, 2020, 8:23 am
and y, and e maybe?
BokaBB wrote: October 13th, 2020, 6:54 am
Zh:that weird z that I can't input
just copy-paste from
https://www.ipachart.com/
I think a should be /ɐ/. /a/ sounds like the a in cat, and I don't think that sound would fit the language. Y should be /j/, and j and zh should be either /d̠ʒ/ or /ʒ/ (I don't mind which letters get which sound). For us to all be on the same page as to which sound we mean, I think we should give both the IPA and a word in English with the sound, too. Also, as I said in my reply before this, please write the times you are active in GMT. For me it's 05:00-19:00 and on Fridays and Saturdays 07:00-20:00.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 11:25 am
by Moosey
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: October 13th, 2020, 10:33 amAlso, as I said in my reply before this, please write the times you are active in GMT. For me it's 05:00-19:00 and on Fridays and Saturdays 07:00-20:00.
My timezone is UTC-5
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 13th, 2020, 11:03 pm
by Saka
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: October 13th, 2020, 10:33 am
I think a should be /ɐ/. /a/ sounds like the a in cat, and I don't think that sound would fit the language.
This is not the case, at least in most major english dialects. The "a in cat" is usually [æ]. Have you tried listening to Wikipedia's sound clips (in the infobox at the bottom)?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_fron ... nded_vowel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open ... nded_vowel
I believe American and British English does not have the vowel [a].
My timezone is UTC+7 and I am usually active on 1:00 - 13:00 UTC.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 14th, 2020, 2:49 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
Strange. It sounds like you're right about the sounds. I use these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_vowel ... with_audio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_pulmo ... with_audio
Though when I look up cat it says /kat/. It seems to be the same for other words. What should we go by?
Edit: On
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-open ... nded_vowel, aka /æ/, it shows cat (totally a by coincidence that me and Wikipedia chose the same word) using it. The dialects that use it are Cultivated New Zealand, General American, and Conservative Received Pronunciation.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 14th, 2020, 3:24 am
by Saka
I'm not exactly sure on the details here, but this may be a difference between using slashes ("/a/") and brackets ("[a]"). I'm not good at explaining, but I'll try.
When using slashes, you are specifying
broad transcription, this is basically specifying what sounds are distinguished in a language.
When using brackets, you are specifying
narrow transcription, this is used to represent
"exactly" how the sounds are articulated, taking into account allophony and various other things.
For instance, in English, the word "pin" may be transcribed as /pɪn/, however, some speakers may pronounce it [pʰɪn].
I don't think I explained that very well, try this:
https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~krussll/p ... arrow.html
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 14th, 2020, 3:39 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
Saka wrote: October 14th, 2020, 3:24 am
I'm not exactly sure on the details here, but this may be a difference between using slashes ("/a/") and brackets ("[a]"). I'm not good at explaining, but I'll try.
When using slashes, you are specifying
broad transcription, this is basically specifying what sounds are distinguished in a language.
When using brackets, you are specifying
narrow transcription, this is used to represent
"exactly" how the sounds are articulated, taking into account allophony and various other things.
For instance, in English, the word "pin" may be transcribed as /pɪn/, however, some speakers may pronounce it [pʰɪn].
I don't think I explained that very well, try this:
https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~krussll/p ... arrow.html
Thanks though I don't think it makes much of a difference with cat. The only difference I see is the first consonant /k/ being aspirated. I'm okay with using /ɐ/ for a, /æ/ would definitely not work.
Edit: Can we please keep on with this thread? Please say what you think about the sounds we talked about.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 17th, 2020, 2:05 am
by BokaBB
Please be active again!
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 17th, 2020, 2:19 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
BokaBB wrote: October 17th, 2020, 2:05 am
Please be active again!
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Yes I am active right now. Can we please do something now? Please express your opinions on these sounds and please use the IPA.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 17th, 2020, 5:46 am
by BokaBB
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: October 17th, 2020, 2:19 am
BokaBB wrote: October 17th, 2020, 2:05 am
Please be active again!
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Yes I am active right now. Can we please do something now? Please express your opinions on these sounds and please use the IPA.
I have IPA keyboard on phone.
A:/a/
Au:/au/
C:/c/ or /ts/ (can both be legal?)
J:absent
Zh:/ʒ/
Sh:/ʂ/ or /ʃ/(can both be legal?)
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 17th, 2020, 7:11 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
BokaBB wrote: October 17th, 2020, 5:46 am
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: October 17th, 2020, 2:19 am
BokaBB wrote: October 17th, 2020, 2:05 am
Please be active again!
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Yes I am active right now. Can we please do something now? Please express your opinions on these sounds and please use the IPA.
I have IPA keyboard on phone.
A:/a/
Au:/au/
C:/c/ or /ts/ (can both be legal?)
J:absent
Zh:/ʒ/
Sh:/ʂ/ or /ʃ/(can both be legal?)
Have a good day!
BokaBB
What do you mean exactly by can both be legal? Where will they be which sounds? You said you wanted this language to be phonetic. Please specify what that means. This is like the third time I'm asking you this. Also, what about /t̠ʃ/ like ch in "chat" and /ʒ/ like j as in jump? I do not want the orthography of this language to be too complex like English.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 17th, 2020, 11:40 am
by Moosey
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 17th, 2020, 2:46 pm
by Schiaparelliorbust
Moosey wrote: October 17th, 2020, 11:40 am
do you mean /ʤ/?
Yes I do. Very sorry.
Edit: I am active right now.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 19th, 2020, 12:22 pm
by BokaBB
Neither I want the language to be complex.
I was thinking that one could choose which to use,altrough I think Serbian versions sound better and remove thin sound of the other sounds. Hope you understand and accept.
Some our syllables are as much as 5 letters long (altrough with digraphs) and I think it will be more logical for every symple word to have 1 syllable. To solve that we just need many suffixes and preffixes.
When we coome to vocabulary,we should not introduce less than 20 new words per message to make things fast.
In Serbian r can be used as a vowel,we could also use it in this language.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 19th, 2020, 12:48 pm
by Schiaparelliorbust
BokaBB wrote: October 19th, 2020, 12:22 pm
Neither I want the language to be complex.
I was thinking that one could choose which to use,altrough I think Serbian versions sound better and remove thin sound of the other sounds. Hope you understand and accept.
Some our syllables are as much as 5 letters long (altrough with digraphs) and I think it will be more logical for every symple word to have 1 syllable. To solve that we just need many suffixes and preffixes.
When we coome to vocabulary,we should not introduce less than 20 new words per message to make things fast.
In Serbian r can be used as a vowel,we could also use it in this language.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Hi! In Turkish we have vowel harmony, basically a, ı, o, and u are a group and e, i, ö, and ü are a separate group. Your are not supposed to have vowels from different groups in the same word (exceptions are loanwords, compound words and some regular Turkish words). Maybe we could have some sort of consonant harmony in this language? I am highly against elementary words being one syllable. That would make the language boring. Though I do agree on the 20 words/post rule. This thread has been kind of slow recently. How do you use r as a vowel? Is it like the fact that y can sometimes be a vowel in English?
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 19th, 2020, 2:41 pm
by BokaBB
I don't think vowel harmony is a good idea since we already have made lots of words.
R can be used if the word has no consonants or a big space without them. N and L can serve the same purpose in some other languages.
We need to make basic words with two syllables somewhat logical because they aren't very much now or to eliminate them.
Elkeo - to have
I will check the word for good and also for day or to create if missing since I want to sign in this language here to make me use it.
I have no time for 20 words now.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 19th, 2020, 2:52 pm
by Schiaparelliorbust
BokaBB wrote: October 19th, 2020, 2:41 pm
I don't think vowel harmony is a good idea since we already have made lots of words.
R can be used if the word has no consonants or a big space without them. N and L can serve the same purpose in some other languages.
We need to make basic words with two syllables somewhat logical because they aren't very much now or to eliminate them.
Elkeo - to have
I will check the word for good and also for day or to create if missing since I want to sign in this language here to make me use it.
I have no time for 20 words now.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
I said consonant harmony, not vowel harmony and maybe we can make the harmony according to the words we already made. I also don't understand what you mean about 2+ syllable words.
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 20th, 2020, 12:50 am
by BokaBB
Sorry about harmony, didn't noticed.
They are few and are not logical. Will explain better later.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 20th, 2020, 1:17 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
Maybe instead of consonant harmony across the whole word, we could make that certain consonants should be with certain vowels. As for c being /c/, I've never seen it used before in English. It sounds almost like /kj/. Should letters have more than one sound or vice versa or both?
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 20th, 2020, 6:27 am
by BokaBB
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: October 20th, 2020, 1:17 am
Maybe instead of consonant harmony across the whole word, we could make that certain consonants should be with certain vowels. As for c being /c/, I've never seen it used before in English. It sounds almost like /kj/. Should letters have more than one sound or vice versa or both?
One sound,ts and that s with a curve, cannot write now.
All the rest should also have corresponding sounds.
I think I can allow two syllables for basic words,but only if they are a minority. Please do not make them often.
I am about to write in a notebook our progress and make this easier to oversee.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Re: Let's create a language!
Posted: October 20th, 2020, 6:35 am
by Schiaparelliorbust
BokaBB wrote: October 20th, 2020, 6:27 am
Schiaparelliorbust wrote: October 20th, 2020, 1:17 am
Maybe instead of consonant harmony across the whole word, we could make that certain consonants should be with certain vowels. As for c being /c/, I've never seen it used before in English. It sounds almost like /kj/. Should letters have more than one sound or vice versa or both?
One sound,ts and that s with a curve, cannot write now.
All the rest should also have corresponding sounds.
I think I can allow two syllables for basic words,but only if they are a minority. Please do not make them often.
I am about to write in a notebook our progress and make this easier to oversee.
Have a good day!
BokaBB
Keeping a notebook is a good idea. Please use this for IPA when on your computer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_pulmo ... with_audio
Is the s with a curve this?: /ʂ/