Since yesterday, or possibly the day before. I noticed that the server costs for persistent storage have been slowly escalating...Apple Bottom wrote:Oh, excellent! (Object on Catagolue, haul - doesn't exist? Curious, since when does Catalogue delete B3/S23 hauls?)A for awesome wrote:The first true 4-ship flotilla:
Is there some criterion for which hauls are being deleted?calcyman wrote:Since yesterday, or possibly the day before. I noticed that the server costs for persistent storage have been slowly escalating...Apple Bottom wrote:Oh, excellent! (Object on Catagolue, haul - doesn't exist? Curious, since when does Catalogue delete B3/S23 hauls?)A for awesome wrote:The first true 4-ship flotilla:
Code: Select all
x = 23, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
8bobobobo$7bo7bo$7bo7bo$obo4bo7bo4bobo$3bo3bo7bo3bo$3bo3bo7bo3bo$o2bo
3bo2bobo2bo3bo2bo$b3o3b3o3b3o3b3o!
I've actually had an idea to keep track of components, for a similar reason. As for implementation, I was thinking of keeping track of cells that have survived for at least n generations, and putting any new cells born from these old cells into a new state. (Of course, the modification has to survive to be counted, so it's not like every single encounter between a stable object and a chaotic mess will result in being marked.) Also, to weed out a lot of irrelevant results, the final object should be relatively complex. This isn't perfect, but it'll do.mniemiec wrote:I also have one other apgsearch-related question, and I'm not sure quite where would be the most appropriate place to ask it. How difficult would it be to modify apgsearch to report pseudo-objects (e.g. if it finds a block on snake, it currently decomposes it into block plus snake. It might be useful to report all three - block, snake, and block on snake.)? Catagolue has been incredibly useful in finding improved syntheses (and sometimes the only syntheses) for certain still-lifes and oscillators. However, it can't currently be used effectively to find syntheses for complicated pseudo-objects. Admittedly, pseudo-objects tend to be generally less interesting, but they do sometimes come in useful (e.g. in the initial Dart synthesis) and some arrangements are difficult to synthesize. If Catagolue kept track of them, it might prove to be very useful in finding such syntheses.
Generations rules are a pain to soup search, because Golly fills in all states with equal probability.drc wrote:Will apgsearch ever support generation rules? I don't think it would be that difficult, but I can't python at all so I don't know.
I actually included a partial version of this in v0.54+0.2Ni, in case you weren't aware. However, it does have severe restrictions, such as slowness, only reporting the pseudo-object and not the constituents, and (of course) not uploading the results to Catagolue, so that may not be what you're looking for.mniemiec wrote:I also have one other apgsearch-related question, and I'm not sure quite where would be the most appropriate place to ask it. How difficult would it be to modify apgsearch to report pseudo-objects?
Right. The whole point would be to harness the massive distributed computing power feeding into Catagolue, so a stand-alone solution doesn't really do that much, unless such changes are implemented globally.A for awesome wrote:I actually included a partial version of this in v0.54+0.2Ni, in case you weren't aware. However, it does have severe restrictions, such as slowness, only reporting the pseudo-object and not the constituents, and (of course) not uploading the results to Catagolue, so that may not be what you're looking for.
This actually makes a lot of sense to find specific difficult pseudo-still-lifes, since this usually occurs with pseudo-still-lifes that contain still-lifes that themselves are awkward to synthesize, so the number of soups containing them will likely be fairly limited. It would also be helpful for finding generic methods involving such still-lifes. It's not as conducive to finding general-purpose difficult converters for popular still-lifes (e.g. inserting a block in an awkward location), as there would be millions (if not billions) of soups containing blocks.Extrementhusiast wrote:(A potential (but slower) workaround would be to set up a script that grabs all soups of a particular object on Catagolue, and then I can run the analysis myself. However, this method would have the advantage of potentially being more targeted, if I'm looking to make a particular object.)
Hmm, would it be possible to archive older hauls off-site, say on archive.org? I believe these are quite valuable -- at the very least it would be nice to know who submitted a haul, even if the haul itself isn't available anymore.calcyman wrote:Since yesterday, or possibly the day before. I noticed that the server costs for persistent storage have been slowly escalating...
Code: Select all
x = 12, y = 20, rule = B3/S23
9b2o$8bo2bo$8bobo$9bo7$bo$b2o$2b2o$obo$2o5$6b3o!
This yields an 8 glider synthesis for 24.46480:BlinkerSpawn wrote:Huh. ...
Code: Select all
x = 191, y = 73, rule = B3/S23
185booboo$186bobo$186bo3bo$28bo36bo99bo21b4o$27bo36bobo97bobo$24boob3o
33bobbo96bobbo20b4o$23bobo38boo98boo20bo3bo$25bo20b3o97b3o37bobo$6bo
178booboo$3obobo34boo98boo$bbobboo33bobbo96bobbo$bo39bobo97bobo$42bo
99bo15$156bo$156boo$155bobo3bo$159boo$160boo6$141b3o$143bo$142bo31$71b
o$71boo$70bobo!
Nice! That beats the previous best of nine gliders.mniemiec wrote: This yields an 8 glider synthesis for 24.46480...
I wrote:This yields an 8 glider synthesis for 24.46480 ...
I wasn't aware that this had been synthesized before. Are you perhaps thinking of 24.46481, which costs 9 gliders, and looks very similar? (I was struck by the close numbers - I have syntheses for 17 out of 4051726 24-bit still-lifes. What are the odds that two of them would have adjacent indices? Less than 1 in a thousand!gmc_nxtman wrote:Nice! That beats the previous best of nine gliders.
I was referring to the previous component-based synthesis:mniemiec wrote:I wrote:This yields an 8 glider synthesis for 24.46480 ...I wasn't aware that this had been synthesized before. Are you perhaps thinking of 24.46481, which costs 9 gliders, and looks very similar? (I was struck by the close numbers - I have syntheses for 17 out of 4051726 24-bit still-lifes. What are the odds that two of them would have adjacent indices? Less than 1 in a thousand!gmc_nxtman wrote:Nice! That beats the previous best of nine gliders.
Code: Select all
x = 75, y = 71, rule = B3/S23
73bo$72bo$72b3o24$21bo14bobo$19bobo14b2o$20b2o15bo3$22bobo$22b2o$23bo
2$17bo$18b2o$17b2o8$28b3o$28bo$29bo7$53b2o$52b2o$54bo12$2o54b2o$b2o53b
obo$o55bo!
Code: Select all
x = 32, y = 32, rule = B3/S23
oobboobbbooooobobobobobboobbbbbo$
boobbbbboobbooooboobbbobbooooboo$
bbbooobobbbbbobbbboooboobobbbbob$
bobooboboobbobboobobooobobbooobb$
bobooobboobbobbboobbbboobooooobo$
bobbobobbbbbobobbbbobbbooobobobo$
oooboobboobobobbboobboobbbobobbb$
obboboboobboooobbobbbobbobbbbobb$
bboboobboobbooobbooobbboooboobob$
boooobobbboobbooobobbbbobobooboo$
obbobboobbbooobbbbobobobbbbbbbbo$
bboobbbbbbobbboooobbbooboobbbbbo$
obobbobbobbbbooobbobbobooboooboo$
booobbobooobobbooobobobooobbbooo$
oobbobooobbobobbbbboobooobobbbob$
bbboobbbboboboboobooobobbbbboboo$
oobobbbbboboooboobobobobbbboobbb$
bobbboboooboobbbbbobobbooobobboo$
ooobbbooobobobooobbobooobobbooob$
ooboooboobobbobbooobbbbobbobbobo$
obbbbbooboobbboooobbbobbbbbboobb$
obbbbbbbbobobobbbbooobbboobbobbo$
ooboobobobbbbobooobboobbboboooob$
boboobooobbbooobbooobboobboobobb$
bbobbbbobbobbbobboooobboobobobbo$
bbbobobbboobboobbboboboobboobooo$
obobobooobbbobbbbobobbbbbobobbob$
oboooooboobbbboobbbobboobbooobob$
bbooobboboooboboobbobbooboboobob$
bobbbboboobooobbbbobbbbbobooobbb$
ooboooobbobbbooboooobboobbbbboob$
obbbbboobbobobobobooooobbboobboo!
The formative stage seems to be around generatuon 750, and it has limited interaction with outside things after that - so it looks like it should be fairly easy to synthesize (and if not easy, then at least plausible).A for awesome wrote:Quadruple burloaferimeter from C4_4: ...
28 gliders:mniemiec wrote:The formative stage seems to be around generatuon 750, and it has limited interaction with outside things after that - so it looks like it should be fairly easy to synthesize (and if not easy, then at least plausible).A for awesome wrote:Quadruple burloaferimeter from C4_4: ...
Code: Select all
x = 160, y = 160, rule = B3/S23
146bobo$134bo11b2o$134bobo10bo$134b2o8$o$b2o121bo$2o120b2o$123b2o$40bo
$41bo77bo$39b3o76bo$118b3o4$44bo$2bo42b2o$3bo40b2o$b3o10$12bobo$13b2o$
13bo2$18bo123bo$16bobo123bobo$17b2o123b2o2$54bo$55bo79bobo$53b3o79b2o$
136bo7$114bo$114bobo$114b2o49$44b2o$43bobo$45bo7$23bo$23b2o79b3o$22bob
o79bo$105bo2$16b2o123b2o$15bobo123bobo$17bo123bo2$146bo$145b2o$145bobo
10$156b3o$114b2o40bo$113b2o42bo$115bo4$39b3o$41bo76b3o$40bo77bo$119bo$
35b2o$36b2o120b2o$35bo121b2o$159bo8$24b2o$12bo10bobo$12b2o11bo$11bobo!Code: Select all
x = 29, y = 29, rule = B3/S23
9b2o7b2o9b$8bo2bo5bo2bo8b$9bo2bo3bo2bo9b$10b3o3b3o10b$29b$10b3o3b3o10b$
9bo3bobo3bo9b$9bobobobobobo9b$bo8b2obobob2o8bob$obo3b2o4bo3bo4b2o3bobo$
o2bobo2bo11bo2bobo2bo$bobobob2o11b2obobobob$2b2obo3bo9bo3bob2o2b$6b3o11b
3o6b$29b$6b3o11b3o6b$2b2obo3bo9bo3bob2o2b$bobobob2o11b2obobobob$o2bobo
2bo11bo2bobo2bo$obo3b2o4bo3bo4b2o3bobo$bo8b2obobob2o8bob$9bobobobobobo9b$
9bo3bobo3bo9b$10b3o3b3o10b$29b$10b3o3b3o10b$9bo2bo3bo2bo9b$8bo2bo5bo2b
o8b$9b2o7b2o9b!
Code: Select all
x = 31, y = 31, rule = B3/S23
obbbobobbobbbobobobbbobbobobbbo$
boooobbobobobbbbbbbobobobboooob$
bobobbooobooboooooboobooobbobob$
boobbobooobooobobooobooobobboob$
oobboooobbbobbbbbbbobbboooobboo$
bbbooobobbbooobbbooobbbobooobbb$
obobobobbbobobbbbbobobbbobobobo$
booooobobbobbooboobbobbobooooob$
bboobbbbooboobobobooboobbbboobb$
oobobbbboobbobobobobboobbbboboo$
bbobbboobbbobooboobobbboobbbobb$
booooobbobobbooooobbobobbooooob$
bbbobooboobbbobobobbbooboobobbb$
oboobobobbooooooooooobboboboobo$
bbobbbbooooobooboobooooobbbbobb$
oboobbbbbbbooobbbooobbbbbbboobo$
bbobbbbooooobooboobooooobbbbobb$
oboobobobbooooooooooobboboboobo$
bbbobooboobbbobobobbbooboobobbb$
booooobbobobbooooobbobobbooooob$
bbobbboobbbobooboobobbboobbbobb$
oobobbbboobbobobobobboobbbboboo$
bboobbbbooboobobobooboobbbboobb$
booooobobbobbooboobbobbobooooob$
obobobobbbobobbbbbobobbbobobobo$
bbbooobobbbooobbbooobbbobooobbb$
oobboooobbbobbbbbbbobbboooobboo$
boobbobooobooobobooobooobobboob$
bobobbooobooboooooboobooobbobob$
boooobbobobobbbbbbbobobobboooob$
obbbobobbobbbobobobbbobbobobbbo!
Code: Select all
x = 33, y = 33, rule = B3/S23
12bo7bo12b$11bobo5bobo11b$12bobo3bobo12b$13b2o3b2o13b$10bo11bo10b$10b5o
3b5o10b$8b2o5bobo5b2o8b$9bo2b2obobob2o2bo9b$6bo2bobobobobobobobo2bo6b$
6b3o2bobobobobobo2b3o6b$4b2o5bobobobobobo5b2o4b$bo3bo2b3o2bobobobo2b3o
2bo3bob$obo2bobo5b2o3b2o5bobo2bobo$bobobob6o7b6obobobob$2b2obo6bo7bo6b
ob2o2b$6b6o9b6o6b$33b$6b6o9b6o6b$2b2obo6bo7bo6bob2o2b$bobobob6o7b6obob
obob$obo2bobo5b2o3b2o5bobo2bobo$bo3bo2b3o2bobobobo2b3o2bo3bob$4b2o5bob
obobobobo5b2o4b$6b3o2bobobobobobo2b3o6b$6bo2bobobobobobobobo2bo6b$9bo2b
2obobob2o2bo9b$8b2o5bobo5b2o8b$10b5o3b5o10b$10bo11bo10b$13b2o3b2o13b$12b
obo3bobo12b$11bobo5bobo11b$12bo7bo12b!
Code: Select all
x = 31, y = 31, rule = B3/S23
obboobbooooobbooobbooooobboobbo$
bbboooooooobbbooobbboooooooobbb$
bbbooobboobbooboboobboobbooobbb$
ooobbobobbbbbobobobbbbbobobbooo$
ooobobooboooooboboooooboobobooo$
booobobooobbbbooobbbbooobobooob$
bobbobobooobooooooobooobobobbob$
oobooobobobbobobobobboboboooboo$
ooobboobbbbobbooobbobbbboobbooo$
ooobooooboooobbbbbooooboooobooo$
oobbobobboobbooboobboobbobobboo$
obbbobbboobobobbboboboobbbobbbo$
bboboboobobbooboboobboboobobobb$
bbooobobbbooobooobooobbbobooobb$
oobbboooobobbooboobboboooobbboo$
ooooooobobbboobbboobbbobooooooo$
oobbboooobobbooboobboboooobbboo$
bbooobobbbooobooobooobbbobooobb$
bboboboobobbooboboobboboobobobb$
obbbobbboobobobbboboboobbbobbbo$
oobbobobboobbooboobboobbobobboo$
ooobooooboooobbbbbooooboooobooo$
ooobboobbbbobbooobbobbbboobbooo$
oobooobobobbobobobobboboboooboo$
bobbobobooobooooooobooobobobbob$
booobobooobbbbooobbbbooobobooob$
ooobobooboooooboboooooboobobooo$
ooobbobobbbbbobobobbbbbobobbooo$
bbbooobboobbooboboobboobbooobbb$
bbboooooooobbbooobbboooooooobbb$
obboobbooooobbooobbooooobboobbo!
While the outcomes of many symmetri soups are quite tantalyzing, it is unfortunate that in many cases, such soups settle down to their results in a very small number of generations - too small for the results to really be considered "natural", or to provide a useful synthesis path. I don't recall that ever happening with asymmetric soups.Apple Bottom wrote:Variant of Jason's p11, on R-mangoes (or doves): ... Soup: ... Haul: ... (Apple Bottom).
New largest still life (by population) on Catagolue in B3/S23 ... Soup: ... Haul: ... (Apple Bottom)
Indeed, it's a shame. Have we ever considered using larger asymmetric soups on Catagolue? It shouldn't be too difficult to support those, actually.mniemiec wrote:While the outcomes of many symmetri soups are quite tantalyzing, it is unfortunate that in many cases, such soups settle down to their results in a very small number of generations - too small for the results to really be considered "natural", or to provide a useful synthesis path. I don't recall that ever happening with asymmetric soups.
Would this be worthwhile?It does, and it's very unfortunate:mniemiec wrote: While the outcomes of many symmetric soups are quite tantalizing, it is unfortunate that in many cases, such soups settle down to their results in a very small number of generations - too small for the results to really be considered "natural", or to provide a useful synthesis path. I don't recall that ever happening with asymmetric soups.
Code: Select all
x = 16, y = 16, rule = B3/S23
bo2bobo2bobob3o$b5ob2o2b2o2bo$2b3obobo2bob2o$2bo2b2o2b4ob2o$bo2b4o5b2o
$2bobo4bob2o2bo$b2ob3ob8o$b7o2b3ob2o$obo2b3ob2o2bo$2o2bobob2o$4bob2ob
2o4bo$b2obo3b2ob2obo$bob7o2bo$4bob2o4b2obo$3b2ob3o3b4o$o2b2obo7b2o!
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I would expect it to happen with asymmetric soups on rare occasions, but it seems to be much more common with symmetric soups, especially with regards to large symmetric objects.drc wrote:It does, and it's very unfortunate: ... HOwever I may have misunderstood you.
Code: Select all
x = 33, y = 33, rule = B3/S23
13b2o3b2o$13bobobobo$15bobo$14b2ob2o$12bo2bobo2bo$15bobo$10b2ob2o3b2ob
2o2$9b2o11b2o$8bo15bo$6bobo15bobo$6bo19bo$4bo23bo$2o4bo19bo4b2o$o2bo2b
o19bo2bo2bo$b5o21b5o2$b5o21b5o$o2bo2bo19bo2bo2bo$2o4bo19bo4b2o$4bo23bo
$6bo19bo$6bobo15bobo$8bo15bo$9b2o11b2o2$10b2ob2o3b2ob2o$15bobo$12bo2bo
bo2bo$14b2ob2o$15bobo$13bobobobo$13b2o3b2o!Code: Select all
x = 19, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
12b2o$12bobo$14bo2bo$12bobobobo$11bo2bo2bo$14bo$9b2ob2o2$8b2o$7bo$5bob
o$5bo$3bo$5bo$2bo2bo$bob2o$bo$2o!Code: Select all
x = 18, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
4b2o$3bobo$3bo$2obobo$bobo2bo7bo$o2bo8b2obo$2o2b2ob2ob2obobo$10bo4b2o$
8b4o2bo2bo$11bo3b2o$12b3o$14bo!Code: Select all
x = 184, y = 33, rule = B3/S23
6bo$7bo$5b3o173bobo$181b2o$138b2o42bo$68bobo66bo2bo$68b2o68bobo$69bo
69bo2$65b3o$b2o$obo57b2o76b2o$2bo56bo2bo75b2o2b2o$55bo4bobo78b2o14bo$
56bo4bo81bo14b2o$54b3o100b2o2b2o$161b2o3$25bo60bo$23bobo31b3o25bo75bo$
24b2o33bo25b3o72bobo$58bo101bo2bo$118bo42b2o$118b2o$117bobo$88b3o$83bo
4bo$82bobo4bo$82bo2bo$32b3o48b2o$32bo$33bo!