Life viewer is not allowed

[Shaos]

Please add to the rules that life viewer tag is not allowed (at least for newbies) because right now it is a strange situation when it's kind of allowed (and included as a button in dialog form) but then somebody reach you through private messages and "politely" ask you to change viewer tag to code tag...

[dvgrn]

Please add to the rules that life viewer tag is not allowed (at least for newbies) because right now it is a strange situation when it's kind of allowed (and included as a button in dialog form) but then somebody reach you through private messages and "politely" ask you to change viewer tag to code tag...

Well, it's not that LifeViewer isn't allowed, just that new-user overuse of the "viewer" tag instead of the "code" tag does happen quite regularly, resulting in a lot of slightly painful scrolling. Here again, the rule is in place so that there's something to point to when it seems like a new user is going a bit too far overboard.

As with the double-posting issue, I've definitely seen people suggesting that the rule should be strictly followed, in situations where it seems perfectly reasonable to me to allow an occasional viewer tag. I'd suggest that it's worth taking these good-faith suggestions with a grain of salt (but that people are in fact doing their best to be polite until proven otherwise, so scare quotes may not be needed)... and only when you get multiple PMs from different people, maybe consider the possibility that you _might_ be overdoing it after all.

... But then I'm a repeat offender in both the viewer-tag and double-post departments, myself, and yet haven't heard too many complaints recently. Either I've been successfully keep these sporadic offenses to a reasonable level, or possibly people have given up on me and are ignoring my bad behavior instead of complaining about it.

EDIT: I've adjusted the last paragraph of the rules so that now there's an official #5 item about the "viewer" tag.

[Shaos]

Great - thanks, now it's all consistent

[confocaloid]

Would it be possible to make the preferred way of sharing patterns (i.e. code tags) easier to discover and use for newcomers, and to make the "viewer" tags less visible in the "Post a reply" form? I think it is inconsistent that the button for the recommended feature is harder to notice (the UI encourages what is discouraged by the rules).

[Haycat2009]

Would it be possible to make the preferred way of sharing patterns (i.e. code tags) easier to discover and use for newcomers, and to make the "viewer" tags less visible in the "Post a reply" form? I think it is inconsistent that the button for the recommended feature is harder to notice (the UI encourages what is discouraged by the rules).

I thought so too. Newbies usually use what they see first then realise other options exist too.

[confocaloid]

bump

Would it be possible to make the preferred way of sharing patterns (i.e. code tags) easier to discover and use for newcomers, and to make the "viewer" tags less visible in the "Post a reply" form? I think it is inconsistent that the button for the recommended feature is harder to notice (the UI encourages what is discouraged by the rules).

[Nathaniel]

I can muck around with the phpBB internals if needed, but I prefer not to do that without really good reason, since it can cause issues when we update to a new software version. The "off the shelf" phpBB code customization options are very limited -- I can only add new phpBB codes, and optionally display a button with that code name after all other formatting buttons (this is currently used for the "catagolue", "viewer", and "wiki" tags).

With that in mind, how about the following?

• Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.

• Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.

[haaaaaands]

I can muck around with the phpBB internals if needed, but I prefer not to do that without really good reason, since it can cause issues when we update to a new software version. The "off the shelf" phpBB code customization options are very limited -- I can only add new phpBB codes, and optionally display a button with that code name after all other formatting buttons (this is currently used for the "catagolue", "viewer", and "wiki" tags).

With that in mind, how about the following?

• Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.

• Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.

hmm...
seems like a good idea, i sometimes get a bit confused myself on patterns being code, so seems like a good idea for people who dont even know that it works like that...

[hotcrystal0]

I can muck around with the phpBB internals if needed, but I prefer not to do that without really good reason, since it can cause issues when we update to a new software version. The "off the shelf" phpBB code customization options are very limited -- I can only add new phpBB codes, and optionally display a button with that code name after all other formatting buttons (this is currently used for the "catagolue", "viewer", and "wiki" tags).

With that in mind, how about the following?

• Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.

• Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.

How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?

[Nathaniel]

How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?

Not possible without quite a bit of under-the-hood mucking, unfortunately.

[hotcrystal0]

How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?

Not possible without quite a bit of under-the-hood mucking, unfortunately.

Is it still possible, though?

[confocaloid]

With that in mind, how about the following?

• Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.

• Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.

I wanted to say I support both suggestions. Hiding "viewer" button and showing "LV" instead would decrease probability that a newcomer will immediately post a viewer. Adding a "pattern" button woud increase chances that a newcomer will notice and use it.

Would the "pattern" button add the same pair of tags ([code]...[/code]), or a new different pair of tags (which will then be processed in the same way as code tags to add "show in viewer" links)?

[Nathaniel]

Is it still possible, though?

Basically anything is possible. PHP is Turing-complete, after all. It's just a matter of (a) how much effort it would take on my part to make it work (I don't know whether things like "account creation date" are already pulled into the posting page's scope, for example, or if I'd have to pull that info out of the database on my own), and (b) how likely it is to break the website when I update to newer versions of phpBB in the future.

In this particular case, I think that it would require some rather serious tinkering inside of phpBB, so the time cost in (a) would likely be a bit higher than I want it to be, and the risk in (b) would likely also be a bit higher than I want it to be.

Would the "pattern" button add the same pair of tags ([code]...[/code]), or a new different pair of tags (which will then be processed in the same way as code tags to add "show in viewer" links)?

The easiest implementation from my end would be for there to now be two separate sets of tags ([code]...[/code] and [pattern]...[/pattern]) which do the exact same thing. I.e., the new "pattern" tag would be processed in the same way as "code" tags.

[Nathaniel]

• Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.

• Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.

This is now done. You should now see "LV" and "pattern" tags on the posting page. They do the same as the still-existing "viewer" and "code" tags. Let me know if you encounter any weirdness.

[hotcrystal0]

• Add a new "LV" tag that does the exact same as the "viewer" tag. Have the "LV" button displayed, but the "viewer" button hidden. Then the "viewer" tag would still exist for backwards compatibility reasons, but the "LV" tag would be the visible one, which is less enticing to newcomers.

• Add a new "pattern" tag that does the exact same as the "code" tag. People would be free to use either, but there would now be a "pattern" button beside "catagolue", "LV", and "wiki" that would be fairly enticing for newcomers.

This is now done. You should now see "LV" and "pattern" tags on the posting page. They do the same as the still-existing "viewer" and "code" tags. Let me know if you encounter any weirdness.

Suggestion: keep the “viewer” tag as a button with a square on it, right after the “color” tag option. This would look bland, and newcomers wouldn’t be tempted to use it.

[Haycat2009]

Is the LV tag the viewer tag or the code tag? It is hard to tell.

[Sokwe]

Is the LV tag the viewer tag or the code tag? It is hard to tell.

You can test how the tag works by using the preview feature while making a post. The viewer tag still works, so you should be able to test them side-by-side to see if they behave the same. There should be no need to submit the test post.

[hotcrystal0]

Other idea: add an “old layout” checkbox that when checked, switches the button layout back to the old one. Newcomers probably wouldn’t use it.

[Sokwe]

Forums rule 5 should be updated to reflect the new tags. I think the use of "pattern" tags should be encouraged, because it is easy to identify the pattern tag button in the editor. The code tag button has always been hard to find for newcomers.

Other idea: add an “old layout” checkbox that when checked, switches the button layout back to the old one. Newcomers probably wouldn’t use it.

This seems unnecessarily complicated. The new layout provides everything the old layout did.

[b-engine]

Even if the Viewer button is replaced with less noticeable LV button, many newcomers still notice and use it. I strongly suggest

How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?

[squareroot12621]

Even if the Viewer button is replaced with less noticeable LV button, many newcomers still notice and use it. I strongly suggest

How about making the viewer/LV tag invisible to people with accounts under three months old?

That was already answered:

Is it still possible, though?

...
In this particular case, I think that it would require some rather serious tinkering inside of phpBB, so the time cost...would likely be a bit higher than I want it to be, and the risk...would likely also be a bit higher than I want it to be.

...Though I think the newcomers are looking at the hover text (possibly to figure out what "LV" could possibly mean). Maybe the [LV] could have a note on its hover text which very clearly discourages it from use. Or, maybe, the [pattern] tag should be a different color (let's say green) from the rest of the tags.

[b-engine]

...Though I think the newcomers are looking at the hover text (possibly to figure out what "LV" could possibly mean). Maybe the [LV] could have a note on its hover text which very clearly discourages it from use. Or, maybe, the [pattern] tag should be a different color (let's say green) from the rest of the tags.

I think LV button could be moved to the left of text size dropdown (and possibly change it to a less noticeable icon). Newcomers seems never notice anything at the left of text size dropdown (that's why they don't use code tag).

[squareroot12621]

...Though I think the newcomers are looking at the hover text (possibly to figure out what "LV" could possibly mean). Maybe the [LV] could have a note on its hover text which very clearly discourages it from use. Or, maybe, the [pattern] tag should be a different color (let's say green) from the rest of the tags.

I think LV button could be moved to the left of text size dropdown (and possibly change it to a less noticeable icon). Newcomers seems never notice anything at the left of text size dropdown (that's why they don't use code tag).

...You're right. Maybe the LV button could be changed to one of these...

Code: Select all

x = 63, y = 39, rule = B3/S23
bo2b26o3b2o2b26o$2o2b5o20bo5bobo24bo$bo2b4o21bo4bo2bo4b16o4bo$bo2b3o22b
o3bo3bo4b16o4bo$3ob2o23bo3b3obo24bo$4bo24bo7bo24bo$4bo24bo7bo24bo$4bo
24bo7bo24bo$4bo24bo7bo24bo$4bo24bo7bo24bo$4bo24bo7bo24bo$4bo24bo7bo24b
o$4bo24bo7bo24bo$4bo23b2o7bo24bo$4bo22b3o7bo4b16o4bo$4bo21b4o7bo4b16o
4bo$4bo20b5o7bo24bo$4b26o7b26o4$2o2b26o3bobob26o$2bob5o20bo3bobob5o20b
o$2o2b4o21bo3b3ob4o21bo$2bob3o22bo5bob3o22bo$2o2b2o23bo5bob2o23bo$4bo
24bo7bo24bo$4bo24bo7bo9b6o9bo$4bo10b4o10bo7bo9b6o9bo$4bo10b4o10bo7bo13b
2o9bo$4bo10b4o10bo7bo13b2o9bo$4bo10b4o10bo7bo11b2o11bo$4bo24bo7bo11b2o
11bo$4bo24bo7bo24bo$4bo23b2o7bo23b2o$4bo22b3o7bo22b3o$4bo21b4o7bo21b4o
$4bo20b5o7bo20b5o$4b26o7b26o! [[ THEME Mono ]]

...where a higher number indicates higher (?) recognizability. I would probably start with #4, and if too many people are using it just go one step down.

[Nathaniel]

Maybe the [LV] could have a note on its hover text which very clearly discourages it from use. Or, maybe, the [pattern] tag should be a different color (let's say green) from the rest of the tags.

I have gone ahead and made this change. Most of the other suggestions (e.g., moving the button further to the left) unfortunately fall into the "requires mucking around inside phpBB's internals and thus would likely break every time phpBB is updated" bucket that I avoid unless absolutely necessary.

[hotdogPi]

I didn't even know that those buttons had hover text, and I've been on the forum for four years.