who did always remove thread to sandbox?

[wln2024]

It is stupid to judge any thread interesting or not, someone would move thread to sandbox by personal opinion.
Let them show fairly.
Here is only a forum that many discoveries focused on oscillated patterns.
And obviously,these are not whole Life.

[OCAfan55]

There are notability guidelines on LifeWiki that will give you a general idea of what the community as a whole believes is threadworthy. Since Eigen letters are not necessarily a part of Cellular Automata, they would be considered "miscellaneous posts" which belong to the Sandbox. Also, don't create new threads for everything, post in threads you have already made.

[wirehead]

To be fair, I think "Eigenletter" is just a bad translation of "still life" or "stable ash". However, to reiterate, still lives and ash are very mundane parts of cellular automata and are rarely notable.

[dvgrn]

It is stupid to judge any thread interesting or not, someone would move thread to sandbox by personal opinion.
Let them show fairly.

People sometimes put in post reports on new posts, suggesting that they should be moved somewhere else. I think I've moved one of your new threads in response to post reports. Other moderators have moved other threads.

Newcomers to these forums often go a little bit wild with their posts at first, until they get used to the community's preferences about this kind of thing. So moderators often move threads without much further comment.

Now, my personal opinion is that you have been creating new threads a little bit more often than necessary, given that you're always sticking with the same general topic. One or two threads about eigen letters seems about right, at least unless other people in the community begin to show some interest in the topic. So additional new threads are likely to get merged into previous threads.

To be fair, I think "Eigenletter" is just a bad translation of "still life" or "stable ash". However, to reiterate, still lives and ash are very mundane parts of cellular automata and are rarely notable.

I think "eigen letter" is quite a good translation, actually -- wln2024's starting patterns are always letters (characters) in some writing system, never anything stable.

The starting patterns evolve into stable ash, of course. But that's the point. wln2024 is interested in starting patterns that produce ash with various recognizable shapes. So, along the lines of "eigenvectors" or "eigenvalues", eigen letters are "characteristic" letters -- initial patterns that produce a characteristic shape when you apply Life rules to them.

I'm working on a reply in another thread, which I'll post sometime tomorrow. It will be an attempt to explain why the community hasn't taken much interest in the "eigen letters" idea so far.

[wln2024]

Fine,your understanding is correct.
Eigen letter is like the concept of eigenvector，because they are too much similar to some continents,so I call them "Eigenletter of land"

Until now,this forum ignores some results of stable ash, which reveal the ways how people created language characters.

Since someone want to use the discoveries on this topic freely without permission,
If you want to see more,come to the exhibitions,which would be held in Beijing, Newyork,London,Moscow,Athens.....and so on.

UK's eigen letter would never be shown in this website.

[SecondTypist]

[…]
Until now,this forum ignores some results of stable ash, which reveal the ways how people created language characters.
[…]

From your previous posts, it seems like you are under the impression that these patterns evolving through an arbitrary ruleset and outputting something that looks vaguely similar to a landform somehow reveals the origin of some symbols. I would like to inform you that you are objectively wrong. They may have artistic value, but I know nothing about art, so I couldn’t comment on that.

[hash0]

From your previous posts, it seems like you are under the impression that these patterns evolving through an arbitrary ruleset and outputting something that looks vaguely similar to a landform somehow reveals the origin of some symbols. I would like to inform you that you are objectively wrong. They may have artistic value, but I know nothing about art, so I couldn’t comment on that.

I'm not sure if it is an arbitrary ruleset. Since this has been bothering me way more than it should have, I tried to understand what the concept of "Eigenletters" is supposed to be and a I came up with this description:

1. Take a character from any alphabet (latin or cyrillic or Devanagari or chinese logograms), encode them as cells on a grid, then evolve them according to Game of Life rules (B3/S23, I assume). As an example, let's take the letter Ш ("sha") from the cyrillic alphabet.
2. Single characters as starting patterns will usually yield very sparse GOL structures that eventually settle into widely dispersed ashes of simple oscillators and still lifes.
3. With a little bit of your imagination, those ashes might resemble the outlines or topography of countries, provinces, peninsulas etc. In our example, OP posted a map of the Kamchatka peninsula and the ash that resulted from evolving Ш. The crucial step, then, is this: The ash resulting from evolving Ш is supposed to resemble the outline of Kamchatka.
4. Since on Kamchatka people predominently speak russian, the fact that the "russian" character Ш evolved into an outline of a part of Russia makes it an "Eigenletter", similar to "Eigenvalues" and "Eigenvectors" in linear algebra.

So OP is using Conway's Game of Life - or more specifically, the B3/S23 ruleset - to map between the "space of writing systems" and the "space of topographic places". If you identify topographic places with a language that is spoken there, you may talk about "Eigenletters" if the mapping is between a, say, russian input letter and a russian topographic feature. I don't want to nitpick, but I think the concept OP is trying to apply is more similar to "Endomorphisms" und not necessarily "Eigenvectors" (where the quintessential characteristic is that they remain unchanged under transformation).

I might have all this wrong, mind you - this is my honest and best effort attempt to make sense of this project.

[Gustone]

I'm not sure if it is an arbitrary ruleset.

OP is using Conway's Game of Life - or more specifically, the B3/S23 ruleset

B3/S23 is an arbitary ruleset.

[wln2024]

From your previous posts, it seems like you are under the impression that these patterns evolving through an arbitrary ruleset and outputting something that looks vaguely similar to a landform somehow reveals the origin of some symbols. I would like to inform you that you are objectively wrong. They may have artistic value, but I know nothing about art, so I couldn’t comment on that.

I'm not sure if it is an arbitrary ruleset. Since this has been bothering me way more than it should have, I tried to understand what the concept of "Eigenletters" is supposed to be and a I came up with this description:

1. Take a character from any alphabet (latin or cyrillic or Devanagari or chinese logograms), encode them as cells on a grid, then evolve them according to Game of Life rules (B3/S23, I assume). As an example, let's take the letter Ш ("sha") from the cyrillic alphabet.
2. Single characters as starting patterns will usually yield very sparse GOL structures that eventually settle into widely dispersed ashes of simple oscillators and still lifes.
3. With a little bit of your imagination, those ashes might resemble the outlines or topography of countries, provinces, peninsulas etc. In our example, OP posted a map of the Kamchatka peninsula and the ash that resulted from evolving Ш. The crucial step, then, is this: The ash resulting from evolving Ш is supposed to resemble the outline of Kamchatka.
4. Since on Kamchatka people predominently speak russian, the fact that the "russian" character Ш evolved into an outline of a part of Russia makes it an "Eigenletter", similar to "Eigenvalues" and "Eigenvectors" in linear algebra.

So OP is using Conway's Game of Life - or more specifically, the B3/S23 ruleset - to map between the "space of writing systems" and the "space of topographic places". If you identify topographic places with a language that is spoken there, you may talk about "Eigenletters" if the mapping is between a, say, russian input letter and a russian topographic feature. I don't want to nitpick, but I think the concept OP is trying to apply is more similar to "Endomorphisms" und not necessarily "Eigenvectors" (where the quintessential characteristic is that they remain unchanged under transformation).

I might have all this wrong, mind you - this is my honest and best effort attempt to make sense of this project.

Thanks for your effort to explain the concept of eigenletter or eigen character. And the rule is the most common B3/S23.
You mentioned Endomorphisms,It is correct to call them in mathematics.
But why I call them eigen character,because among nearly 200,000 characters in the world alphabets,these characters are too much special,
They are related to land shape, and as we know, every continent is moving a little bit every year,but even after several millions years,the land shape won't change much, that means these characters won't change too,they are stable relatively in culture.
So they should be called eigen in culture aspect.
I hope more and more people to join in this project to find them all,after that,we can see different cultures more clearly.
So today I give a conjecture.

[Gustone]

find them all

It's impossible. There is an infinite amount of ways to draw a letter with black and white pixels. In fact, you can make any letter evolve into any shape. You would just need to draw it in a particular way.

[wln2024]

find them all

It's impossible. There is an infinite amount of ways to draw a letter with black and white pixels. In fact, you can make any letter evolve into any shape. You would just need to draw it in a particular way.

Hi,You are seemed to like to deny anything that beyond your acknowledge.
Do not be hurry, go to see the evidences I showed in other thread.
There are surely infinite amount ways of drawing a letter,but why we write letter like that we have been taught. In another way to say, why human created different letters in different areas.
How we write contain some reasons.

The life Game reveals a main structure of eigenletter, like bones of body, which can related to its nearby land shape. This is not accidental upon all those evidences.

[wln2024]

I am introducing comway game of life to elementary students.

[Gustone]

the evidences those evidences

You have an enormous case of confirmation bias. And that is the worst way to introduce CGOL to someone who doesn't know what it is.

There are surely infinite amount ways of drawing a letter,but why we write letter like that we have been taught

I meant this

Clipboard.png (8.66 KiB) Viewed 239 times

These are all the same letter with the same shape but drawn differently, and they all turn into different things. (By the way, this letter existed long long before that country acquired that land) Different size of bounded grid, or placement of the letter within it, will also cause patterns to turn out differently.

[wln2024]

The one that can turn to land shape is which we want to find.
The border size can be changed,but similarity still exists.
Placement requires specific coordinates.
The writing of letter is clue.
And you should know Russian handwriting was confirmed Not more than 500 years,before that They often spoke French.
Korean handwriting was created not more than 600 years,before that they used Chinese writing.
We Chinese always ask why did they created characters like that.

How do you face the fact that land shape appears from local or nearby character system?
That is absolutely not bias.

What I show to people is not your affair.
People have their own objective judgment.

[Gustone]

Russian handwriting was confirmed Not more than 500 years,before that They often spoke French

Both parts of this are untrue

How do you face the fact that land shape appears from local or nearby character system?

It can also appear from a completely unrelated character.

[NNlk05]

How do you face the fact that land shape appears from local or nearby character system?
That is absolutely not bias.

Explain how this pattern resembles the Chinese character "日" (Sun, pronounced rì) turning into a shape resembling Sri Lanka near India?

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 13, rule = B3/S23
b6o$o6bo$o6bo$o6bo$o6bo$o6bo$8o$o6bo$o6bo$o6bo$o6bo$o6bo$b7o!

sri lanka.png (42.23 KiB) Viewed 212 times

[Gustone]

turning into a shape resembling Sri Lanka

He looks at the ash, not the envelope

[SecondTypist]

[…]
But why I call them eigen character,because among nearly 200,000 characters in the world alphabets,these characters are too much special,
They are related to land shape, and as we know, every continent is moving a little bit every year,but even after several millions years,the land shape won't change much, that means these characters won't change too,they are stable relatively in culture.
So they should be called eigen in culture aspect.
I hope more and more people to join in this project to find them all,after that,we can see different cultures more clearly.
So today I give a conjecture.
[some picture with words on it that aren’t specific enough to constitute a conjecture, along with a self-dox]

First of all, I think you should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlati ... _causation
The two elements you are trying to create a correlation between are:

• how the human brain mentally constructs an outline surrounding an organization of cells on a square lattice, such that they interpret it to resemble a geographic region and that the organization of cells is being produced by another organization of cells that resembles a letter such that it looks like a character in a language associated to the region

• The evolution of the culture of the region

Not only are you attempting to establish a correlation, you are attempting to establish causation.
Use your human intuition to reflect upon that. That is quite a bonkers thing to ascertain.
Also, I think making judgements on a culture based on how a game interprets its elements is kinda racist.

Edit: you might also want to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_correlation

[wln2024]

It can also appear from a completely unrelated character.

Show your examples. Don't say only by imagination.

[wln2024]

turning into a shape resembling Sri Lanka

He looks at the ash, not the envelope

Yes, not envelope

[wln2024]

[…]
[some picture with words on it that aren’t specific enough to constitute a conjecture, along with a self-dox]

First of all, I think you should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlati ... _causation
The two elements you are trying to create a correlation between are:

• how the human brain mentally constructs an outline surrounding an organization of cells on a square lattice, such that they interpret it to resemble a geographic region and that the organization of cells is being produced by another organization of cells that resembles a letter such that it looks like a character in a language associated to the region

• The evolution of the culture of the region

Not only are you attempting to establish a correlation, you are attempting to establish causation.
Use your human intuition to reflect upon that. That is quite a bonkers thing to ascertain.
Also, I think making judgements on a culture based on how a game interprets its elements is kinda racist.

Edit: you might also want to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_correlation

As we know, Conway's rules simulate survival competition, and History development is also survival competition. So why isn't character development?
Some eigen characters have been formed less than 2000 years that correspond to a larger area.
You can see from the picture, that character means human or people. before 2000 years ago, our Chinese ancestors didn't write human like this. And after absorbing various ethnic groups,(We Chinese people are never racist)people knew more and more about geography,
A new writing of people appeared,and has been used until now.
This writing of people corresponds to the whole China Shape.

We have very few methods for studying texts using mathematical approaches.
Why can't we apply Conway's rules to the study of literature and philology?

[SecondTypist]

[Facts and logic]

As we know, Conway's rules simulate survival competition, and History development is also survival competition. So why isn't character development?
Some eigen characters have been formed less than 2000 years that correspond to a larger area.
You can see from the picture, that character means human or people. before 2000 years ago, our Chinese ancestors didn't write human like this. And after absorbing various ethnic groups,(We Chinese people are never racist)people knew more and more about geography,
A new writing of people appeared,and has been used until now.
This writing of people corresponds to the whole China Shape.

We have very few methods for studying texts using mathematical approaches.
Why can't we apply Conway's rules to the study of literature and philology?

Woah, buddy, stop to think. The reason that we can’t study literature and philosophy using these methods is because you have provided no real evidence that it indicates anything real that can be gleaned from such an observation. Imagine a discussion:
“Hey, Bob, why aren’t you helping us research early Arabic writings to help us better understand The Islamic Golden Age”
“Oh, sorry, I forgot to tell you that I abandoned that project. I’m too busy putting Arabic characters into Conway’s Game of Life and comparing them the territory occupied by the Caliphates”
(Said no one ever)
Also, thanks for the history lesson, but you seemed not to use Conway’s Game of Life anywhere in it, further advancing my point that this is absolutely fruitless (at least for what you are trying to get out of it). Wait, did you just say that Eigencharacters were formed? I need to check instant replay. Yep, you did, not even realizing that the evolution of a CGoL pattern is, in fact, immutable. Additionally, you ask why “survival competition” can be modeled by Conway’s Game of Life but not character development. Well, actually, CGoL doesn’t model “survival competition”, and you would be hard-pressed to demonstrate otherwise.

It can also appear from a completely unrelated character.

Show your examples. Don't say only by imagination.

This is the Ol Chiki (a writing script for the Santali language) character, Uch:

Code: Select all

 x = 18, y = 20, rule = B3/S23
9b3o$7b3ob2o$6b2o4bo$5b2o5bo$5bo6bo$4bo8bo$4bo8bo$4bo8bo$4bo8bo$4bo8b
o$4bo8bo$4bo7b2o$5bo5b2o$3b4o3b5o$2b2o2b5o4bo$2bo13bo$bo14b2o$2o12b3o
$b3o8b3o$3b10o!

I can’t help but see how it ends up having ash that looks like Greece.

[wln2024]

To second typist
You said "CGoL doesn’t model survival competition", That is nonsense.
The example you show look like Greece is not good. I have a better one from Greek Characters which can cover the whole Balkan Peninsula.

But the story about Arabic is funny. I feel eigen letter of strait of Hormuz can be found first.

[wln2024]

Hello everyone,
many people are proud of their osillated patterns discoveries, those are good,not easy to find, interesting too, I also introduce to people but I don't have copyright of them,so I won't show them in exhibition.
Today I show a pattern that is corresponding to Europe land shape.
The similarity between the two pictures is intuitive. In the pattern there is a special area related German area, that is a square pattern.
The square pattern is common in osillated patterns. The other side of it is a cross pattern.
Compare with history,The cross shape itself is not unique to Germany, but the continuous tradition of binding the cross to military honor and sustaining it for nearly a millennium is indeed a distinctive phenomenon of Germany—or more specifically, Prussia.
Why do Germans has that special tradition?
CGOL can give an explanation.

[SecondTypist]

Your method is solely comprised of guessing and checking. It just so happens that some members of the forum use more sophisticated techniques (or rather they code programs that use more sophisticated techniques, but I digress). This is why they are proud of their “oscillated patterns” (but not all of them are oscillated, like syntheses, circuitry, catalysts, et cetera). This is also why there is little interest in your idea.
I would also like to point out that there is this thing called “burden of proof” (it is not explicit in logic, but is a great, if not the best, principle). Instead of linking you to Wikipedia, I will explain it to you in words, ‘cuz God knows you don’t read those articles. Burden of proof states that whoever makes a claim must prove it, rather than others being required to disprove it. Yep, that’s right, there’s none of this “WeLl, PrOvIdE mE a CoUnTeR-eXaMpLe” crap being taken genuinely here. As Carl Sagan put it, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”. Correlation is not extraordinary evidence or evidence at all for that matter, no matter how much you want it to be (correlation is not even on your side, I was able to create a passable counter-example in 10 minutes against something you have been doing for 1 or 2 years).
Your examples honestly aren’t even that good, for Europe, can you tell me what happened to Italy and the Balkans? It is not that little block, which is practically only Cyprus. Why is the UK connected to the Iberian Peninsula? Why is the Iberian Peninsula pointy? Why is Scandinavia pointed to the northwest? It does make for a very good head of a modern racecar. Does that mean that the letter R waited until automobiles existed to form? There are many other holes, yet you criticize my Greece counterexample, which has islands and actually takes the shape of what I want it to (roughly). Very W confirmation bias and moving of the goalposts here.
Anyways, eigenletters still stem from an interesting idea: “what constellations with certain characteristics can be created from a methuselah of a certain characteristics”. A refined version of this generalization could possibly be interesting, like, for example, finding a blockic constellation with the most possible cells from a small amount of cells allowed to a methuselah, or something else that is more creative than that.