Catalyst Discussion Thread

[confocaloid]

I'm curious, how would you define this idea of "semi-transparent"? (As opposed to/contrasted with an usual catalysis that isn't transparent.)

Useless but semi-transparent Eater1 : [...]

[Tawal]

I'm curious, how would you define this idea of "semi-transparent"? (As opposed to/contrasted with an usual catalysis that isn't transparent.)
[…]

Yes, I'm agreeing with you and I was wondering the same.
You're alright, it's more an unusual Eater1 catalysing.
Normally, a 'semi-transparent' catalyst is a catalyst which have all of its cells died but not at the same time.
This Eater1 has more than 50% of its cells died during the interaction.
I think it's rare to have this kind of stable catalyst.
And so I consider the catalyst transparent as soon as it has more than 50% of died cells.
But it stills my own opinion …

[get_Snacked]

This Eater1 has more than 50% of its cells died during the interaction.

i call that pseudo-transparent.

[Timelord Missionary]

[…]

Yes, I'm agreeing with you and I was wondering the same.
You're alright, it's more an unusual Eater1 catalysing.
Normally, a 'semi-transparent' catalyst is a catalyst which have all of its cells died but not at the same time.
This Eater1 has more than 50% of its cells died during the interaction.
I think it's rare to have this kind of stable catalyst.
And so I consider the catalyst transparent as soon as it has more than 50% of died cells.
But it stills my own opinion …

I, on the other hand, would only consider a catalyst to be transparent if, A. it has at least one casing cell, and B. It isn't a block that is interacted with from only one side, barring a strictly unnecessary grin reagent (that is, if the catalysis happens to trigger an eater bridge eater or something, if the block would still be there without the eater bridge eater, then it's still not transparent.)

I would, therefore, consider designations of things being semi- or pseudo-transparent to be unnecessary and ill-defined.

[confocaloid]

I find it hard to understand the provided redefinition.

(1) What casing has to do with the catalyst being or not being transparent?

Strictly speaking, casing is only defined for oscillators (casing is part of the stator of an oscillator).
One could imagine that a catalyst is used in an oscillator, and therefore some parts of the catalyst become parts of the rotor of the oscillator, and some parts of the catalyst might become parts of the stator of the oscillator. However, in that case, if any alive cell of the catalyst belongs to the casing of the oscillator, then that would mean the catalyst fails to be transparent (contradicting the quoted redefinition).

(2) What interacting from only one side has to do with a catalyst being or not being transparent?
(3) What grin reagent has to do with a catalyst being or not being transparent?
...

[...] I, on the other hand, would only consider a catalyst to be transparent if, A. it has at least one casing cell, and B. It isn't a block that is interacted with from only one side, barring a strictly unnecessary grin reagent (that is, if the catalysis happens to trigger an eater bridge eater or something, if the block would still be there without the eater bridge eater, then it's still not transparent.) [...]

[Timelord Missionary]

I find it hard to understand the provided redefinition.

(1) What casing has to do with the catalyst being or not being transparent?

Strictly speaking, casing is only defined for oscillators (casing is part of the stator of an oscillator).
One could imagine that a catalyst is used in an oscillator, and therefore some parts of the catalyst become parts of the rotor of the oscillator, and some parts of the catalyst might become parts of the stator of the oscillator. However, in that case, if any alive cell of the catalyst belongs to the casing of the oscillator, then that would mean the catalyst fails to be transparent (contradicting the quoted redefinition).

(2) What interacting from only one side has to do with a catalyst being or not being transparent?
(3) What grin reagent has to do with a catalyst being or not being transparent?
...

[...] I, on the other hand, would only consider a catalyst to be transparent if, A. it has at least one casing cell, and B. It isn't a block that is interacted with from only one side, barring a strictly unnecessary grin reagent (that is, if the catalysis happens to trigger an eater bridge eater or something, if the block would still be there without the eater bridge eater, then it's still not transparent.) [...]

1. because casing gives the catalyst "ground to stand on" so to speak.

2. I say it has to do with the fact that blocks in particular are very small, so I had to make an exception to my rule.

And yes, this is using oscillator language to describe this sort of thing. So sue me.

[confocaloid]

[...] 1. because casing gives the catalyst "ground to stand on" so to speak. [...]

That sounds like it would mean the catalyst fails to be transparent.

A transparent catalyst has the property that all of its alive cells temporarily become dead at some time (during catalysis). A transparent catalyst is completely destroyed by the passing active reaction, and then restored back.

If it has any stator cells (whether "casing" or not), then it cannot possibly be transparent.

[...] 2. I say it has to do with the fact that blocks in particular are very small, so I had to make an exception to my rule. [...]

I don't see a need to make an exception for blocks, in either sense.

A transparent block catalyst is a transparent catalyst, in the exact same sense in which a transparent mango catalyst would be a transparent catalyst; or in the same sense in which a transparent chucklebait catalyst would count as a transparent catalyst (in the unlikely event that someone discovers a way for the chucklebait to function as a transparent catalyst).

[Timelord Missionary]

[...]

If it has any stator cells (whether "casing" or not), then it cannot possibly be transparent.

[...] 2. I say it has to do with the fact that blocks in particular are very small, so I had to make an exception to my rule. [...]

I don't see a need to make an exception for blocks, in either sense.

A transparent block catalyst is a transparent catalyst, in the exact same sense in which a transparent mango catalyst would be a transparent catalyst; or in the same sense in which a transparent chucklebait catalyst would count as a transparent catalyst (in the unlikely event that someone discovers a way for the chucklebait to function as a transparent catalyst).

True! Let's just stick to the normal definition and not make things complicated. Sorry about that.

There are probably a couple of edge cases, but they can probably be brushed off for now. The distinction for those cases is unnecessary.

On the topic of the eater, it is still very much not transparent, as it has cells that stay the same.

[Tawal]

My own definition of transparent SL :

• Pure transparent = All cells of the catalyst are OFF at the same time.
• Semi-transparent = all cells of the catalyst are OFF but not at the same time.
• Pseudo-transparent = +50% of cells are OFF (good appellation from get_Snacked)

Edit:
Understand "are OFF" by "each cell got the OFF state at least one time between the 1rst interaction and the restoring of the catalyst".

[hotdogPi]

[*]Semi-transparent = all cells of the catalyst are OFF but not at the same time.

I believe this is fully transparent.

[confocaloid]

Useless but semi-transparent Eater1 :

Code: Select all

x = 0, y = 0, rule = LifeHistory
16.2E$17.E$C13.3E$C.C11.E$3C$2.C!

[...] a catalyst which have all of its cells died but not at the same time.
This Eater1 has more than 50% of its cells died during the interaction.
I think it's rare to have this kind of stable catalyst. [...]

I agree that the catalysis is unusual. And it looks like it turned out useful.

I'm unsure whether a single term like "pseudo-transparent" or "quasi-transparent" or similar could possibly accurately capture any of ideas discussed here. Especially if one ends up counting cells that remain alive vs. cells that change their states. Statements like "+50% of cells are OFF" sound more like a "numeric property" rather than a simple "yes/no" test (because the threshold of 50% seems more-or-less arbitrary).

In this case, one could provide a more clear explanation, and write something like "4 out of 7 alive cells of the eater 1 change their state during catalysis". Or something like "only 3 out of 7 alive cells in the catalyst are permanently alive". A direct explanation like this would be clearer, and would tell more information.

[Tawal]

[*]Semi-transparent = all cells of the catalyst are OFF but not at the same time.

I believe this is fully transparent.

I'm really not agreeing with that.
I consider, if there is always at least one cell alive of the catalyst at any time, the catalyst is "hooked" by these cells.
That's why I define a Pure Transparent SL.

[Tawal]

I think the discussion about Transparent Still Life should take place elsewhere than on this thread.

So, back to the subject of this thread.
Which may excuse my double post …

What about this catalyst ?
It can eat a Tear Drop as shown :

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 13, rule = LifeHistory
3.2E$3.2E2$.6E$E5.E$E.E.E$.2E.2E3$7.A$5.2A.A$5.A2.A$6.2A!

But I tried it with CatForce on an H and this input file … with no result except the induction coil that I can't (don't know how to) avoid :

Code: Select all

==Setup==
start-gen 2
last-gen 130
max-gen 500

num-catalyst 1
stable-interval 10
max-category-size 10

==Pattern==
pat o$obo$3o$2bo! 10 10

==Output==
output Tear_Drop_Eater_on_H.rle

== Tear Drop Eater Catalyst ==
cat b2ob2o$2bobobo$o5bo$6o2$2b2o$2b2o! 10 0 2 * required b2o$2bo$o5bo$6o2$2b2o$2b2o! 0 2 antirequired bo5b2o$3o5bo$ob5obo$o6bo$8o$2bo2bo$2bo2bo$2b4o! -1 2

It looks like an Eater5 but not …

[confocaloid]

[...] What about this catalyst ?
It can eat a Tear Drop as shown : [...]

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 13, rule = LifeHistory
3.2E$3.2E2$.6E$E5.E$E.E.E$.2E.2E3$7.A$5.2A.A$5.A2.A$6.2A!

The first thing that comes to mind re: eating annoying teardrops is this (known) boat factory, where a teardrop is eaten by a smaller catalyst (xs8_32qk):

Code: Select all

x = 27, y = 35, rule = LifeHistory
17.2A$17.A$14.A4.A2.2A$14.5A.A2.A$2A18.2A.A.2A$.A10.4A.3A3.A2.A$.A.A
8.A2.A.A3.2A.A$2.2A18.A.2A$22.A$21.2A5$2.E18.2A$2.E.E17.A$2.3E17.A.2A
$4.E18.A.A4$23.3D$23.D2.D$23.D2.D$24.2D8$23.D$22.D.D$23.2D!

However, your catalyst doesn't fit in this case, and arguably it wouldn't count as an improvement even if it did fit. Are there known cases where xs19_69b8b9czx33 would work?

[Tawal]

[…]
However, your catalyst doesn't fit in this case, and arguably it wouldn't count as an improvement even if it did fit. Are there known cases where xs19_69b8b9czx33 would work?

I already know about xs8_32qk.
But it's not the same position of the catalyst and it is not the same back reaction and it's not the same begin/end interaction:

Code: Select all

x = 40, y = 13, rule = LifeHistory
3.2E$3.2E$38.2E$.6E31.E$E5.E28.2E.E$E.E.E30.E.E$.2E.2E3$7.A29.A$5.2A.
A26.2A.A$5.A2.A26.A2.A$6.2A28.2A!

(notice that xs8_32qk can be X-flipped as shown)
Well, I don't know cases where my catalyst works.
Who can predict how will appear a Tear Drop from an active region ?

[confocaloid]

[...] But it's not the same position of the catalyst and it is not the same back reaction and it's not the same begin/end interaction: [...]

Which is part of why I asked about [other] uses. And readers of this forum thread may or may not know about any other ways to eat a teardrop, and that was not mentioned in the post viewtopic.php?p=210024#p210024 either, so it made sense (at least) to mention that boat factory while I'm posting here anyway.

[Tawal]

Cross-posting the pre-Pond Eater catalyst I used on this H to G.

Code: Select all

x = 25, y = 11, rule = LifeHistory
22.2E$15.2E5.2E$16.E$16.E.E$17.2E3.2E$21.E2.E$22.2E3$3A17.3A$.A.A17.A
.A!

Is it known ?

[Tawal]

Eater 3 variant that recovers slower :

Code: Select all

x = 44, y = 14, rule = LifeHistory
35.E$5.2E27.E.E$5.2E28.E$9.E$3.7E23.5E$3.E29.E4.E$6.2E3.2E23.E2.E$6.E
.E.E.E23.2E.E2.E$3.E4.E.E22.E5.E.E.E$2.E.E2.2E.E2.E18.E.E4.E2.E$2.E2.
E4.E.E.E17.E2.E2.2E$3.2E5.E2.E19.2E$2A6.E.E19.2A$2A6.2E20.2A!

[eRroR_6o6]

Today, I accidentally found a variant of the half-bakery/ship-tie catalyst that doesn't period-double.
It doesn't have a lot of clearance, but it works.

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 19, rule = B3/S23
8bo$6b3o$2b2obo$2b2obo2b3o$5bobo2bo6b2o$2b3o2bo9bo$bo5b2o6bobo$bo2b3o
8b2o$2obo2bo$3bo6b2o$3b2o4bobo$9b2o2b3o$12bo$11bo$11bo$6b2o3bo$7bo$4b
3o$4bo!

[Anivec]

I think the discussion about Transparent Still Life should take place elsewhere than on this thread.

So, back to the subject of this thread.
Which may excuse my double post …

What about this catalyst ?
It can eat a Tear Drop as shown :

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 13, rule = LifeHistory
3.2E$3.2E2$.6E$E5.E$E.E.E$.2E.2E3$7.A$5.2A.A$5.A2.A$6.2A!

Barrister has found an active region where it works:

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 19, rule = B3/S23
2bo3bo$4b5o3bo$4bo2b2o4bo$3b3o2bo3bo$8bob2o2$5bo2bo$5b3o$6bo4$b2ob2o$
obobo$o5bo$b6o2$3b2o$3b2o!

[Period1GliderGun]

Today, I accidentally found a variant of the half-bakery/ship-tie catalyst that doesn't period-double.
It doesn't have a lot of clearance, but it works.

Code: Select all

x = 20, y = 19, rule = B3/S23
8bo$6b3o$2b2obo$2b2obo2b3o$5bobo2bo6b2o$2b3o2bo9bo$bo5b2o6bobo$bo2b3o
8b2o$2obo2bo$3bo6b2o$3b2o4bobo$9b2o2b3o$12bo$11bo$11bo$6b2o3bo$7bo$4b
3o$4bo!

Way smaller top catalyst:

Code: Select all

x = 17, y = 17, rule = B3/S23
3bo$3b3o$6bo8b2o$2o3bo9bo$bo3b2o6bobo$bob2o8b2o$2bobo$8b2o$7bobo$7b2o
2b3o$10bo$9bo$9bo$4b2o3bo$5bo$2b3o$2bo!

[Anivec]

Looking at all of the catalysts, I wonder if a classification of catalysts is possible. Furthermore I am also curious if catalysts can be grouped into families.
I have come up with a proposal on formatting, but I am missing some easily recognizable names. The formatting is as such:
{Initial Conditions}{Recovery}{Reaction Change)
Another much more specific but extremely complicated proposal for the format is:
{Reactant Initial Requirement(s)}{Catalyst Initial Requirement(s)}{Reactant/Catalyst Latch On Mechanism(s)}{Reactant Intermediate Condition(s)}{Catalyst Intermediate Condition(s)}{Catalyst Recovery Mechanism(s)}{Catalyst Cell Change Bounding Box (bounding box of changed affected cells in the catalyst)}{Reactant Cell Change Bounding Box (bounding box of changed affected cells in the reactant)}{Repeat Time/Overclocking Time}

Not all of these parameters have to be included for the format agreed upon, but standardization is something we might want to tackle in the future.

I will clarify further later, likely when my finger no longer hurts due to injury.

[TigerCub414]

A cool catalyst I found while learning to use Barrister:

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 15, rule = B3/S23
5b2o$5bo$6bo4b2o$3b3o5bo$2bo3b3o2bo$2b2obo2bo2b3o$3bob2o$3bo$2obo$bob
2o$bobo$2obo2bo$3bobobo$3bo2b2o$2b2o!

Edit: sparky version:

Code: Select all

x = 19, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
$10b2o$6bo3bo$5bobo3bo4b2o$4bo2b4o5bo$4bobo4b3o2bo$3b2ob2o2bo2bo2b3o$b
o2bobo3b2o$b2o3bo$5bo$5b2o!

[qqd]

Interesting banana spark to beehive (The banana spark can be supplied in two directions):

Code: Select all

x = 32, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
7bo17bo$7bo4b2o10bo5b2o$6bo5b2o10bo5b2o2$2b2o3b2o11b2o3b2o$bobo3b2o10b
obo3b2o$bo17bo$2o16b2o!

[ElijahKen]

Interesting banana spark to beehive (The banana spark can be supplied in two directions):

Code: Select all

x = 32, y = 8, rule = B3/S23
7bo17bo$7bo4b2o10bo5b2o$6bo5b2o10bo5b2o2$2b2o3b2o11b2o3b2o$bobo3b2o10b
obo3b2o$bo17bo$2o16b2o!

If you replace the eater1 with an eater2 and add a block, you almost get a p21 oscillator:

Code: Select all

x = 17, y = 12, rule = B3/S23
4b2o2b2o$4b2obo2bo$8b2o5b2o$15b2o2$3bob2o3b2o$b3ob2o3b2o$o$b3ob2o$3bo
bo$3bobo$4bo!
[[ STOP 18 ]]