Thread for basic questions

[WhiteHawk]

I also found this p57 that is 5 cells bigger than the current SKOP p57:

Code: Select all

x = 39, y = 21, rule = B3/S23
28bo$27bobo$16bo10bob3o$14b3o9b2o4bo$13bo11bo2bob2o$13b2o9bob3obo6b2o$
24bo5bobo5bo$10bo15b4o2bo2bobo$b2o7b2o8bo5bo6bo$bobo16bo6b2o2b4obo$3bo
7bo8bo7bo5bo$3b2o6bo16bob4o2bo$b2o2bo5bo8b2o7bo3bob2o$o2b3o15bo8bo2bo$
obo4bo23bobo$bob3obo9b2o13bo$3bo2bo11bo$bo2b2o9b3o$b2obo10bo$4bo$4b2o!

Since there are still so few p57 oscillators besides fairly large ones (herschel conduits, R-pentomino hassler/gun-supported, Snark loops), should this relatively LCM oscillator deserve a mention on the wiki?

EDIT: unrealated, but what is the smallest polyomino predecessor of the tub, clean and/or dirty?

my (by hand) solution

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 7, rule = B3/S23
2bob2o$6o$2o3b2o$bo3bo$2o3b2o$b6o$b2obo!

[confocaloid]

What is the intended meaning of the word 'precompleted' in discussions of partial or completed hassler oscillators?
search.php?keywords=precompleted

[...] what is the smallest polyomino predecessor of the tub, clean and/or dirty? [...]

These octominoes are tub predecessors:

Code: Select all

x = 14, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
11bo$3o8b2o$2bo9bo$2b2o8b2o$b2o8b2o!

[WhiteHawk]

Has anyone ever quantified all of the places where a single small object (Blinker, Block) could trigger a stable switch engine?

[dvgrn]

Has anyone ever quantified all of the places where a single small object (Blinker, Block) could trigger a stable switch engine?

Meaning, all the places where you can put a small object near a clean switch engine, and end up with a block-laying switch engine or a glider-producing switch engine?

I don't know of a database of all of those, no. Would it also count if the small object caused an unlikely explosion that produced a second switch engine that supported the first one to make something like an ark?

[WhiteHawk]

I don't know of a database of all of those, no. Would it also count if the small object caused an unlikely explosion that produced a second switch engine that supported the first one to make something like an ark?

I guess it could, but I would presume that would be quite rare indeed. I would also presume it would be more likely for said switch engine to head off in a completely different direction or simply react with leftover ash.

Thanks.

[dvgrn]

I guess it could, but I would presume that would be quite rare indeed. I would also presume it would be more likely for said switch engine to head off in a completely different direction or simply react with leftover ash.

Yup -- if you're really limiting your "small object" set to just blinkers and blocks, then that's such a small set of possible positions that it seems quite unlikely that a second switch engine would show up at all, let alone a coordinated one that helps with the stabilization of the first engine.

An enumeration of all of the possibilities could be done fairly easily. One method would be to generate all of the starting positions and send them in to Catagolue in the form of a "stdin" haul -- then see if anything shows up besides the two expected linear-growth objects.

If we set this kind of thing up, though, it seem like it might as well be a much larger haul -- maybe add all orientations of all of the top dozen commonest ash objects, or something like that?

[LuveelVoom]

What is the smallest (by bounding box) pattern which can surround a block and have it survive the impact of any one glider that starts outside its bounding box? Any two gliders?

Any three gliders?


Please let me know if there are ambiguities in the question.

[WhiteHawk]

What is the smallest (by bounding box) pattern which can surround a block and have it survive the impact of any one glider that starts outside its bounding box? Any two gliders?

Any three gliders?

Please let me know if there are ambiguities in the question.

Does Eater 2 work (6x6)? Can take 4 gliders

Code: Select all

x = 21, y = 22, rule = B3/S23
18bo$18bobo$18b2o3$16bo$16bobo$16b2o$11bo$11bobo$11b2o2$8bo$8bobo$8b2o
$3bob2o$b3ob2o$o$b3ob2o$3bobo$3bobo$4bo!

For 1 glider, maybe eater 1 on block?

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 11, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o$4b2o$4bobo$6bo$6b2o2$6b2o$6b2o!

[dvgrn]

Does Eater 2 work (6x6)? Can take 4 gliders
...
For 1 glider, maybe eater 1 on block?

"Any one glider" seems to imply that the protective layer needs to surround the block in all directions, and that the single glider can come from anywhere.

Also the question doesn't require that the protective layer has to survive the impact unchanged -- it depends on what "it" refers to.

If the protective layer _doesn't_ have to survive unchanged, then the old standard candidate for single-glider protection is a sparse field of blocks. Basically, start dropping these

Code: Select all

x = 55, y = 44, rule = LifeHistory
.D10.D18.B$2.D10.D16.3B$3D8.3D16.3B$.15B13.5B$2.15B8.B3.5B3.B$3.15B5.
4B.7B.4B$4.15B4.17B$5.15B2.19B$6.15B.19B$16.26B.B$17.28B$15.B2.27B2.B
$14.35B$13.37B$13.37B$13.37B$12.39B$11.41B$11.41B$11.41B$11.41B$11.41B
$11.41B$9.45B$8.47B$9.21B2C22B$11.3B2.14B2C15B2.3B$11.3B2.31B2.3B$12.
B4.29B4.B$17.29B$18.13B.13B$18.12B3.12B$16.11B9.11B$15.12B9.12B$15.11B
11.11B$15.12B9.12B$13.15B7.15B$13.15B7.15B$14.14B7.14B$15.11B11.11B$16.
9B13.9B$18.7B13.7B$21.3B15.3B$22.2B15.2B!

-- or better yet, these

Code: Select all

x = 62, y = 62, rule = LifeHistory
54.D$54.D.D$52.D.2D$51.2D$51.2D$.D10.D17.2B19.2D$2.D10.D15.4B18.2D$3D
8.3D15.4B18.2D$28.6B17.2D$2.15D7.2B2.6B2.2B13.2D$3.15D4.18B11.2D$21.20B
10.2D.D$18.26B7.2D.D.D$17.28B6.2D.2D$16.30B5.2D$16.30B5.2D$14.34B3.2D
$13.36B2.D$12.38B$12.38B$12.38B$11.40B$10.42B$10.42B$9.44B$9.44B$10.42B
$10.42B$8.46B$6.50B$5.25B2A25B$5.25B2A25B$6.50B$8.46B$10.42B$10.42B$9.
44B$9.44B$10.42B$10.42B$11.40B$12.38B$12.38B$12.38B$10.D2.36B$9.2D3.34B
$9.2D5.30B$9.2D5.30B$6.2D.2D6.28B$5.D.D.2D7.26B$7.D.2D10.20B$9.2D11.18B
4.15D$9.2D13.2B2.6B2.2B7.15D$9.2D17.6B$9.2D18.4B15.3D8.3D$9.2D18.4B15.
D10.D$9.2D19.2B17.D10.D$9.2D$9.2D$6.2D.D$5.D.D$7.D!

-- around the block at the safe distance prescribed by the blue envelope.

We're protecting a single block with blocks here, so the shadow of a block is just the right size to hide a block from any incoming glider. Four blocks is enough to provide a single-glider-stopping SafetyShield for the white block -- 38x38:

Code: Select all

x = 38, y = 38, rule = LifeHistory
2A34.2A$2A34.2A17$18.2C$18.2C17$2A34.2A$2A34.2A!

The same idea works to protect arbitrarily large areas, not just block-sized ones -- just have to make sure to drop enough well-separated blocks that all incoming glider lanes are protected by the red marks.

There's probably something smaller than 38x38, but the analysis quickly gets a lot more complicated.

Dealing with more than one glider is an even more difficult project -- to the point where it would be quite painful to design even a two-glider-stopping SafetyShield, let alone a three-glider-stopping one.

Once you start dealing with multiple gliders, the other question that you have to answer is whether it's okay to assume that the previous collision settles before the next glider comes in -- or if all of the gliders are allowed to arrive at any time. For the second option, the number of cases to analyze quickly gets unmanageably large as the number of gliders increases.

With careful placement, it might work to add a bunch more blocks to protect against "any one [glider|LWSS|MWSS|HWSS]". But even that gets somewhat tricky due to cases like this:

Code: Select all

x = 49, y = 39, rule = LifeHistory
.5C$C4.C5.2A34.2A$5.C5.2A34.2A$C3.C16$29.2C$29.2C17$11.2A34.2A$11.2A34.
2A!

You have to shield your diagonal shielding blocks from orthogonal attacks, by adding more blocks on the same diagonals, and more orthogonally off to the sides.

I think there aren't any really big ugly *WSS+block methuselahs, luckily. Anything that explodes with lots of gliders would be pretty tricky to deal with, but maybe the worst explosions are slightly offset pi explosions, which just means maybe expanding the "safe" envelope around the block a little bit.

[Tawal]

What is that ?

Code: Select all

x = 35, y = 21, rule = LifeHistory
4$3.2D$2.2D2B$3.BD2B$4.4B3.4B$5.7BE5B3.2B2.2B$6.5BEBE14BD$7.4BE2BE13B
DBD$8.3BE2BE13B3DB$10.3B2E15BD$12.17B$13.9B.B$15.3B!

It isn't mentioned on LifeWiki Evolutionary Sequence page.
It gives 3 Gliders, 2 Blocks and 1 Ship.

[WhiteHawk]

What is that ?

Code: Select all

x = 35, y = 21, rule = LifeHistory
4$3.2D$2.2D2B$3.BD2B$4.4B3.4B$5.7BE5B3.2B2.2B$6.5BEBE14BD$7.4BE2BE13B
DBD$8.3BE2BE13B3DB$10.3B2E15BD$12.17B$13.9B.B$15.3B!

It isn't mentioned on LifeWiki Evolutionary Sequence page.
It gives 3 Gliders, 2 Blocks and 1 Ship.

I don't think it is a named pattern, but then again there are an infinite number of evolutionary patterns, so naming every single one would be pointless and neverending. I don't belive this active region is common enough to warrant a name (also the page linked only list common sequences, so the fact that this one doesn't show up in the tabulation is to be expected).

EDIT: didn't realize it was a product of glider-pi collision

[confocaloid]

That pattern can be obtained as a generation of a pi+glider collision:

Code: Select all

x = 9, y = 6, rule = B3/S23
2bo$obo$b2o$6b3o$6bobo$6bobo!
#C [[ HARDRESET GRID ZOOM 8 STOP 6 ]]

Code: Select all

x = 8, y = 5, rule = B3/S23
bo$b2o$obo2b3o$5bobo$5bobo!
#C [[ HARDRESET GRID ZOOM 8 STOP 11 ]]

There are multiple three-glider collisions that make it.

Where did you take it? Does it appear by catalysing a versatile active object (Herschel/B-heptomino/pi-heptomino/R-pentomino)?

Code: Select all

x = 2213, y = 25, rule = B3/S23
bo203bo107bo98bo89bo99bo107bo90bo104bo95bo98bo109bo90b2o4bo93bo6b2o91b
o99bo110bo88bo98bo106bo100bo91bo$obo203bo104b2o98bo91bo99bo106bobo89b
2o103bo95bo98b2o105b2o90bobo5bo93bo5bobo91bo99bo108bo90bo98b2o105b2o
99b2o90b2o$o2bo200b3o105b2o97b3o87b3o97b3o98bo7b2o89b2o102b3o93b3o97b
2o107b2o91bo3b3o91b3o5bo91b3o3bo93b3o108b3o86b3o97b2o105b2o99b2o90b2o$
o2bo699bo103bo201bo498bo98bo94bo$2b2o697b3o101b2o202bobo494b3o99bo94bo
102bo5b2o92bo106bo100bo91bo$201b2o9b3o491bo99b2o100b2o95b2o2b2o97bo93b
o105b2o92b2o202b3o92b3o100b2o5b2o91b2o105b2o99b2o90b2o$202b2o8bo493b2o
200bobo93b2o103bo93bo104bobo91bobo106bo293b2o6bo91b2o94bobo8b2o99b2o
90b2o3bobo$201bo11bo491bobo200bo97bo100b3o91b3o104bo93bo106b2o100bo94b
o295b2o206b2o$1510b2o97b2o93b2o296bo208bo$902b2o706b2o93b2o$609bo291bo
bo204b2o92b2o$610bo193b3o96bo204bobo91bobo$608b3o195bo301bo93bo$805bo
1105b2o189b2o$302bo1608bobo187bobo$303bo304b2o1301bo191bo$301b3o305b2o
$402bo118bo86bo$403bo118bo$301b2o98b3o116b3o$302b2o$301bo$401b2o117b2o
$402b2o117b2o$401bo118bo!

What is that ?

Code: Select all

x = 35, y = 21, rule = LifeHistory
4$3.2D$2.2D2B$3.BD2B$4.4B3.4B$5.7BE5B3.2B2.2B$6.5BEBE14BD$7.4BE2BE13B
DBD$8.3BE2BE13B3DB$10.3B2E15BD$12.17B$13.9B.B$15.3B!

It isn't mentioned on LifeWiki Evolutionary Sequence page.
It gives 3 Gliders, 2 Blocks and 1 Ship.

[WhiteHawk]

How many gun periods in life have bounding boxes less than or equal to 1000 cells?

[confocaloid]

How many gun periods in life have bounding boxes less than or equal to 1000 cells?

https://catagolue.hatsya.com/census/b3s ... esis-costs
(although that might be incorrect due to the Catagolue glitches with determining bounding boxes of guns)

Code: Select all

"guntrue_15","992"
"guntrue_36","992"
"guntrue_56","986"
"guntrue_21","972"
"guntrue_168","966"
"guntrue_94","950"
"guntrue_80","912"
"guntrue_144","903"
"guntrue_55","899"
"guntrue_16","864"
"guntrue_104","861"
"guntrue_52","858"
"guntrue_75","858"
"guntrue_84","858"
"guntrue_72","837"
"guntrue_60","810"
"guntrue_43","800"
"guntrue_45","792"
"guntrue_50","792"
"guntrue_88","783"
"guntrue_28","782"
"guntrue_120","759"
"guntrue_42","736"
"guntrue_70","720"
"guntrue_54","629"
"guntrue_46","555"
"guntrue_40","513"
"guntrue_48","496"
"guntrue_25","484"
"guntrue_24","400"
"guntrue_30","324"

Code: Select all

"gun_15","992"
"gun_36","992"
"gun_56","986"
"gun_21","972"
"gun_168","966"
"gun_94","950"
"gun_80","912"
"gun_144","903"
"gun_55","899"
"gun_16","864"
"gun_104","861"
"gun_52","858"
"gun_75","858"
"gun_84","858"
"gun_72","837"
"gun_60","810"
"gun_43","800"
"gun_45","792"
"gun_50","792"
"gun_88","783"
"gun_28","782"
"gun_42","736"
"gun_120","726"
"gun_70","720"
"gun_54","629"
"gun_46","555"
"gun_40","513"
"gun_48","496"
"gun_25","484"
"gun_24","400"
"gun_30","324"

[get_Snacked]

where can i learn about systematic names of conduits? i want to know the systematic name of this conduit, but i can't find it anywhere, and i want to generally just learn about conduit nomenclature.

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2o$obo$bo5$5b2o$4b2o$5bo!

EDIT: it seems to be RF28B. however, i still want to know how to name conduits. where do i find such resources?

[confocaloid]

where can i learn about systematic names of conduits? i want to know the systematic name of this conduit, but i can't find it anywhere, and i want to generally just learn about conduit nomenclature.

Code: Select all

x = 7, y = 10, rule = B3/S23
b2o$obo$bo5$5b2o$4b2o$5bo!

EDIT: it seems to be RF28B. however, i still want to know how to name conduits. where do i find such resources?

It's explained in pages 202-205 of the book "Conway's Game of Life: Mathematics and Construction".

Briefly, a converter with name <input code><orientation><timing><output code> takes <timing> ticks to convert an active object <input code> into an active object <output code>, with the output active object's orientation <orientation>.

[dvgrn]

... i still want to know how to name conduits. where do i find such resources?

It's explained in pages 202-205 of the book "Conway's Game of Life: Mathematics and Construction"...

As the book mentions, to find out the step and orientation change of a conduit, you'll need to know the canonical phase and orientation of the input and output -- and also the canonical (0,0) point for each.

These are given in a LifeViewer pattern in the first post of the Elementary Conduits thread.

The choice of orientation and phase and (0,0) point are sometimes a bit arbitrary, at least for some active objects.

Follow-up question
It looks like we need to add the E-heptomino to that illustration. Are there any other active objects that might be worth adding in while we're at it?

[C28]

Follow-up question
It looks like we need to add the E-heptomino to that illustration. Are there any other active objects that might be worth adding in while we're at it?

the book or the lifeviewer pattern thing?

EDIT by dvgrn: Definitely the summary in the Elementary Conduits thread, not the book. The book is not likely to get a revised edition until at least its ten-year anniversary, and anyway its section 7.7 on "Converters for Other Objects" doesn't really need an update. It doesn't promise to provide an authoritative exhaustive list of all active objects or anything -- just a sampling.

edit by Lucy: oh ok, in that case i'd say i can't think of any others to add.

[WhiteHawk]

Are there any pure herschel hasslers that aren't conduits or B/R hasslers?

[Chris857]

Are there any pure herschel hasslers that aren't conduits or B/R hasslers?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1437&p=151516&hilit ... er#p151516 includes a p32 herschel / pre-pulsar hassler which is probably the best answer to your question. Other results from the forums were Nihonium (but I think it's more accurately an R hassler) or viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1437&p=183010&hilit ... er#p183010 which has a p105 B hassler that becomes a herschel.

[confocaloid]

Take the oscillator 101. Can anything from outside interact with the spark at all? I think I can prove it impossible without touching the stator at all, but given that the stator looks like an eater 1 form, it may be possible for an outside region to hit the spark without destroying the 101 oscillator by having it recover.

If the answer is "no", we can remove it from the "strong sparker" category, which was a bit ridiculous to begin with.

Scorbie answered this in the affirmative on Discord. It remains a sparker.

Code: Select all

x = 47, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
4b2o6b2o$3bobo6bobo$3bo10bo$2obo10bob2o$2obo2bob2obo2bob2o$3bobobo2bob
obo$3bobobo2bobobo$2obo2bob2obo2bob2o$2obo10bob2o$3bo10bo$3bobo6bobo$
4b2o6b2o2$8b3o27b3o$10b5o25b5o$8bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo$6b3o7bo19b3o7bo$5bo
29bo!

Can anything from outside detect the phase of the oscillator nondestructively (without having to rebuild most or all of the oscillator from scratch)?
Can a reaction arriving from outside nondestructively test whether it's indeed the 101 oscillator (and not e.g. the still life shown below on the right)?
The above interaction fails:

Code: Select all

x = 198, y = 18, rule = B3/S23
4b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o50b2o6b2o$3bobo6bobo18bobo
6bobo18bobo6bobo18bobo6bobo18bobo6bobo48bobo6bobo$3bo10bo18bo4b2o4bo
18bo10bo18bo10bo18bo10bo48bo10bo$2obo10bob2o12b2obobo6bobob2o12b2ob2o
2b4o2b2ob2o12b2ob2o8b2ob2o12b2obo10bob2o42b2obo10bob2o$2obobo2b2o2bobo
b2o12b2obobo6bobob2o12b2obob8obob2o12b2obo2b6o2bob2o12b2obo2bob2obo2bo
b2o42b2obob2o4b2obob2o$3bobobo2bobobo18bobob4obobo18bobo6bobo18bobobo
2bobobo18bobobo2bobobo48bobo6bobo$3bobobo2bobobo18bobob4obobo18bobo6bo
bo18bobobo2bobobo18bobobo2bobobo48bobo6bobo$2obobo2b2o2bobob2o12b2obob
o6bobob2o12b2obob8obob2o12b2obo2b6o2bob2o12b2obo2bob2obo2bob2o42b2obob
2o4b2obob2o$2obo10bob2o12b2obobo6bobob2o12b2ob2o2b4o2b2ob2o12b2ob2o8b
2ob2o12b2obo10bob2o42b2obo10bob2o$3bo10bo18bo4b2o4bo18bo10bo18bo10bo
18bo10bo48bo10bo$3bobo6bobo18bobo6bobo18bobo6bobo18bobo6bobo18bobo6bob
o48bobo6bobo$4b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o20b2o6b2o50b2o6b2o2$8b
3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o27b3o$10b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o25b5o$
8bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo22bo3bo2bo$
6b3o7bo19b3o7bo19b3o7bo19b3o7bo19b3o7bo19b3o7bo19b3o7bo$5bo29bo29bo29b
o29bo29bo29bo!

[get_Snacked]

has anyone discovered an elementary line ship? (i think amling will see this question and immediately give an affirmative answer.)

[Sokwe]

has anyone discovered an elementary line ship? (i think amling will see this question and immediately give an affirmative answer.)

If you have a question about elementary technology in Life, you should always check the moving objects collection first. In this case, look for files with the word "stretch" in the file name.

Edit: I really need to update the moving objects collection. It of course has examples of the pattern you're looking for in the velocity-c4d folder, but it's missing many recently discovered stretchers, such as these.

[get_Snacked]

If you have a question about elementary technology in Life, you should always check the moving objects collection first. In this case, look for files with the word "stretch" in the file name.

i cannot access GitHub because of parental controls.

[dvgrn]

In this case, look for files with the word "stretch" in the file name.

That will only find linestretchers, though. The question is about an elementary lineship, which requires a lineeater also.

... Somehow I almost don't think there's any such thing as an elementary lineship. Most lineships are going to be made up of linestretcher and a lineeater, with an adjustable length of line between them -- more than one part, therefore not elementary.

The only exception I can think of is an elementary spaceship that stretches and eats a line, and the linestretcher and lineeater are connected in a non-adjustable way.