Project Omniraumschiff (The Shipsearch Project)

[hibiscus]

We (me, NimbleRogue, H. H. P. M. P. Cole, and AforAmpere) were discussing about how to get newcomers incentivized into installing search programs and finding new spaceships for the glider database. For those who don't use Discord, here's a few messages from the discussion:

Was wondering - do you any of you think it would be a good idea to apply Gamification to something like the Glider database so as to incentivize newcomers into installing search programs and finding spaceships? I plan to keep this separate from the Glider database, so no one is forced into getting points. Points could be awarded depending on the offset (c/7 spaceships would give you 1 point, 2c/7 spaceships give you 2 points, etc). This is probably a terrible idea but I'm open to criticism.

Doesn’t seem like a terrible idea, there are achievements on Catagolue after all. Perhaps points should be awarded based on current rarity of the speed or something though

A different way of quantifying rarity than just total counts could be to measure the taxicab distance in OT to the nearest rule that has a ship of that speed, giving some higher value if that speed is new across OT. That might incentivize finding new speeds in less explored spaces. This should probably be combined with something else to still incentivize filling in gaps.

I made the goal of 50 NRSS in speciation, to spur on people looking into it. I think the plan went very well. I bet if we find a way to gamify some goals we could have a lot more activity towards them.

Exactly what I was thinking, the amount of rules a spaceship works in could also be used to figure out points. Non-endemic spaceships are useful since they work in many rules and as such cover many gaps

I’ve been wanting to see or set up a tracker for the gliderdb to see how close we are to filling up theoretically possible rules, that would definitely be a good thing to have. Number go up is usually a good hook.

If you have any other suggestions for the project please post them here.

[Mathemagician314]

There could be both points and achievements -- for example, you get an achievement for finding your first new spaceship, an achievement for finding five or ten new spaceships in one rule, and finding a new endemic spaceship (and achievements give you points as well). This might be too far, but you could even add a level system based on how many points you have... although that might backfire and cause unnecessary competition.

[hibiscus]

There could be both points and achievements -- for example, you get an achievement for finding your first new spaceship, an achievement for finding five or ten new spaceships in one rule, and finding a new endemic spaceship (and achievements give you points as well). This might be too far, but you could even add a level system based on how many points you have... although that might backfire and cause unnecessary competition.

Good ideas! I've created some achievements based off of these:
First Find: discover your first spaceship

first find.png (1.62 KiB) Viewed 8835 times

Dedicated: find 5 new spaceships in one rule

dedicated.png (1.13 KiB) Viewed 8835 times

Extremely Devoted: find 10 new spaceships in one rule

extremely devoted.png (1.92 KiB) Viewed 8835 times

Endemic: find a spaceship which works in only one rule
(couldn't add image)

[LaundryPizza03]

I guess we should focus on INT rules with or without B0, and lay out some ground rules for inclusion. I've been using a similar criterion as Glider.DB for the generic (i.e. uninteresting) case:

1. The spaceship is nontrivial and nonadjustable, but may be extendable.
2. There exists a rule in which the shaceship exists and has the smallest known minpop for its speed.

We would standardize the list in the same manner as in 5s, i.e. in minpop phase with orientation between south and southeast, with B0/S8 equivalent to non-B0 without S8, and self-complementary rules distinct from their strobing equivalent. But in the raw listing, we would likely encode spaceships by rulespace, rather than minrule, to ease computation.

Endemic: find a spaceship which works in only one rule
(couldn't add image)

How about a rainbow swirly thing?

Some more achievement ideas, by topic:

• Total finds:
  • Find the first spaceship in a rule. The INT rulespace is so large that we will likely keep finding new rules with easy-to-find spaceships until the universe goes dim; but the small, low-period ones can be quickly exhausted by EPE, and should fill the majority of rules where spaceships exist.
  • Find 100, 1000, or 10000 new spaceships. MatchPatt2 and EPE can quickly find lots of similar spaceships.
• By rules:
  • Find a new spaceship in an interesting rulespace: outer-totalistic, non-B0 without survival (i.e. phoenix rules), and self-complementary.
  • Find a new spaceship for each of the following rule families: B0, B1e, B2a, and non-relativstic (with none of the aforementioned transitions).
• By speed:
  • Find a new spaceship for each of the following reduced speeds: c/1o, c/2o, c/2d, 2c/3o, c/3o, c/3d, c/4o, c/4d, 2c/5o, c/5o, c/5d, c/6o, c/6d, c/7o, c/7d, c/8o, c/8d, c/9o, c/9d, c/10o, and c/10d. (subject to revision)
  • Find a new spaceship for 10 different slopes.
  • Find an orthogonal spaceship with speed at least 4c/5o, but less than c.
  • Find 100 new non-reduced speeds. MatchPatt2 and EPE can find these quickly.
  • Find a new spaceship with period greater than 10000.
• Miscellaneous:
  • Find a new counterfeit alpha-glider (shaped like bo$2bo$3o! with any orientation)
  • Find a new counterfeit beta-glider (shaped like obo$b2o$bo! with any orientation)
  • Find a new 3-cell spaceship with period at least 100.

[AforAmpere]

I guess we should focus on INT rules with or without B0, and lay out some ground rules for inclusion.

I figured the goal was OT in this case, for the gliderdb specifically. Seeing how much of INT we can get ships for is also an interesting goal, though I imagine much harder to make a suitable sized database for.

[hibiscus]

So we've currently got 3 image ideas for the Endemic achievement:

endemic.png (433 Bytes) Viewed 8711 times

The image I would have added (it if it wasn't for some sort of limit),

new1.png (1.33 KiB) Viewed 8711 times

H. H. P. M. P. Cole's idea, a tick surrounded by red X's,

new2.png (5.06 KiB) Viewed 8711 times

and LaundryPizza03's idea, if I understanded it correctly.
Which one would work better?

[LaundryPizza03]

So we've currently got 3 image ideas for the Endemic achievement:
endemic.png
The image I would have added (it if it wasn't for some sort of limit),
new1.png
H. H. P. M. P. Cole's idea, a tick surrounded by red X's,
new2.png
and LaundryPizza03's idea, if I understanded it correctly.
Which one would work better?

I think the second one was the best.

[CasperWen8805181]

Code: Select all

x = 3, y = 3, rule = B2/S23|B3/S3
b2o$o$o!

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 4, rule = B2/S23|B3/S3
2b2o$bo$o$o2bo!

Code: Select all

x = 6, y = 6, rule = B2/S23|B3/S3
4b2o$3bo$2bo$bo3bo$o3bo$o2bo!

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 4, rule = B2/S23|B3/S3
2b2o$bo$o3bo$o!

Code: Select all

x = 5, y = 4, rule = B2/S23|B3/S3
b2o$o3bo$o2bo$o!

Code: Select all

x = 4, y = 3, rule = B2/S23|B3/S3
b2o$o$o2bo!

are these ones endemic?
P.S. Oscillators have been found but not listed

[Mathemagician314]

are these ones endemic?

They may be endemic outer-totalistically, but we're thinking in terms of non-totalistic transitions, and anyway, I don't think alternating rules count as rules in the isotropic non-totalistic rulespace, and this project is only considering that rulespace (at least for now). Regardless, any posts here won't make a difference; this would presumably be a separate site or application, with no direct connection to the ConwayLife forums.

Also, other achievement suggestions:

"In Reverse": find a non-monotonic spaceship.
"Backing Up": find a non-monotonic spaceship with a period of ten or greater.

"Knight": Find a knightship.
"Camel": Find a camelship.
"Giraffe": Find a giraffeship.
"Ibis": Find an ibisship.
"Flamingo": Find a flamingoship.
"Zebra": Find a zebraship.
"Antelope": Find an antelopeship.
"Safari": Find at least one of each of the above ships.

"Sloth": Find a knightship, camelship, giraffeship, ibisship, flamingoship, zebraship, or antelopeship with Euclidean speed slower than c/10.
"Snail": Find a knightship, camelship, giraffeship, ibisship, flamingoship, zebraship, or antelopeship with Euclidean speed slower than c/20.
"Martian:" Find an oblique ship that's not needed for the Safari achievement.

In general, I think we should try to have a good mix of "boring" achievements (ex: find a _____ with no conditions) and more interesting achievements (ex: In Reverse, Sloth, Snail). We could also have some hidden achievements, which are more joke-y and sometimes outrageously difficult to get. If we do that, here are some ideas:

"Funny Number": Find a spaceship with period 69.
"How Did You Know?" Find a spaceship with a period equal to the last number of your IP address.

I'm open to suggestion about removing, modifying, or changing names of any of these achievements -- these are just suggestions.

[unname4798]

are these ones endemic?

They may be endemic outer-totalistically, but we're thinking in terms of non-totalistic transitions, and anyway, I don't think alternating rules count as rules in the isotropic non-totalistic rulespace, and this project is only considering that rulespace (at least for now). Regardless, any posts here won't make a difference; this would presumably be a separate site or application, with no direct connection to the ConwayLife forums.

Also, other achievement suggestions:

"In Reverse": find a non-monotonic spaceship.
"Backing Up": find a non-monotonic spaceship with a period of ten or greater.

"Knight": Find a knightship.
"Camel": Find a camelship.
"Giraffe": Find a giraffeship.
"Ibis": Find an ibisship.
"Flamingo": Find a flamingoship.
"Zebra": Find a zebraship.
"Antelope": Find an antelopeship.
"Safari": Find at least one of each of the above ships.

"Sloth": Find a knightship, camelship, giraffeship, ibisship, flamingoship, zebraship, or antelopeship with Euclidean speed slower than c/10.
"Snail": Find a knightship, camelship, giraffeship, ibisship, flamingoship, zebraship, or antelopeship with Euclidean speed slower than c/20.
"Martian:" Find an oblique ship that's not needed for the Safari achievement.

In general, I think we should try to have a good mix of "boring" achievements (ex: find a _____ with no conditions) and more interesting achievements (ex: In Reverse, Sloth, Snail). We could also have some hidden achievements, which are more joke-y and sometimes outrageously difficult to get. If we do that, here are some ideas:

"Funny Number": Find a spaceship with period 69.
"How Did You Know?" Find a spaceship with a period equal to the last number of your IP address.

I'm open to suggestion about removing, modifying, or changing names of any of these achievements -- these are just suggestions.

== Modified ==
"How did you know?": Find a spaceship with a period equal to any number of your IP address.
"Sloth": Find a spaceship with a simplified speed no greater than c/10.
"Snail": Find a spaceship with a simplified speed no greater than c/20.
== Added ==
"Don't reveal your IP address!": Find two spaceships with periods equal to two numbers of your IP address.
"Last chance!": Find three spaceships with periods equal to three numbers of your IP address.
"YOUR IP HAS BEEN SUCCESSFULLY REVEALED! Muahahaha!": Find four spaceships with periods equal to all numbers of your IP address.
"Another funny number": Find a spaceship with period 42.
"Most random number": Find a spaceship with period 37
"Most random number 2": Find a spaceship with period 73.
"Counterfeit": Find a counterfeit Life spaceship other than a glider and XWSS.

[Mathemagician314]

If we're having a counterfeit, why not have achievements for fake gliders and xWSS's too?

(Also should we move this to the Sandbox? It doesn't necessarily feel like this belongs in OCA.)

[hibiscus]

are these ones endemic?

They may be endemic outer-totalistically, but we're thinking in terms of non-totalistic transitions, and anyway, I don't think alternating rules count as rules in the isotropic non-totalistic rulespace, and this project is only considering that rulespace (at least for now).

The project is meant to focus on spaceships from Life-like cellular automata. Someone else could probably make a project for INT rules. Like AforAmpere said:

Seeing how much of INT we can get ships for is also an interesting goal, though I imagine much harder to make a suitable sized database for.

[Mathemagician314]

Oh sorry, I thought this was INT. In my opinion, INT would make a more interesting database with more things to find, since the OT rulespace isn't huge (although clearly an INT database would take more work to make). If we're focusing on Life-like cellular automata, some of those achievements may need to be revised as they seem quite difficult or more likely impossible.

[CasperWen8805181]

Wait so alternates don't count?

Yo Glider, You good lil bro?

Code: Select all

x = 3, y = 3, rule = B2e3-i/S23-j4k|B3/S1e2-e3
bo$2bo$3o!

Code: Select all

x = 3, y = 3, rule = B35n/S23n4k|B3/S1e2-e3
bo$2bo$3o!

(c/8 diagonal, p8 oscillator)

Idea:
Achievement:
Get Old (Find a Spaceship in a Generations rule with exactly 5 states total)
Getting Old ((Find a Spaceship in a Generations rule with 10 states total)
Got Old (Find a Spaceship in a Generations rule with 20 states total)

[AforAmpere]

Oh sorry, I thought this was INT. In my opinion, INT would make a more interesting database with more things to find, since the OT rulespace isn't huge (although clearly an INT database would take more work to make). If we're focusing on Life-like cellular automata, some of those achievements may need to be revised as they seem quite difficult or more likely impossible.

OT already has a database, the gliderdb (which I believe this project is supposed to help incentivize adding to) and there is still a lot unknown. 2^18 is a lot smaller than 2^102, but that's still 262144 rules, and finding ships for all rules that can support them isn't a trivial task, especially if you're looking for rarer speeds, or in some of the harder to work with rules. INT is definitely a cool goal, but a vastly harder one (the 5S database has over a million ships in it, and doesn't come remotely close to covering INT). At least with OT, we might at some point be able to get close to finding a ship in all rules that have them. Even Life, a single OT rule, has had a long history of looking for new speeds.

Wait so alternates don't count?

Alternating rules are really a class of multistate rules in disguise, they aren't actually 2-state OT rules themselves.

[Mathemagician314]

That sounds good to me! How do you propose ships would be uploaded to the site/application, and what scripts would be used for finding spaceships?

[AforAmpere]

There's no site that exists currently, but the Spaceships in Lifelike CA thread is where they have been submitted for a while, unless the OT rule has its own thread. It'd definitely be cool to have a site, I'm not sure if that's part of the plan here. Lots of spaceship searching scripts exist. gfind, qfind, ntzfind, LSSS, RLS, WLS/JLS, and ikpx2 are all useful for various use cases.

[Aleph]

I just want to make sure that ships found by multiple people can have badges awarded to all discoverers. This has happened at least once before (the discovery part; not the badge part).
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1074&p=106388&hilit=wwei23#p106388

[hibiscus]

Sorry for bringing this dead thread back to life, but I had an idea that could probably be implemented. What do you think?
Bounties
If you want a spaceship with a specific speed and/or slope in a specific rule, but don't have the time to find it, then creating a bounty would be a good way to incentivize people into finding that particular spaceship.
Here's a mockup, (pardon my terrible paint.net skills)

mockup1.png (27.68 KiB) Viewed 8141 times

Finding a spaceship for a bounty will grant you 1 point.

[H. H. P. M. P. Cole]

Ideas for dialog boxes:

"This spaceship was discovered by <DISCOVERER> in <YEAR> in the rule <ORIGINAL RULE>. Don't worry about this rediscovery. Keep trying and you will find something new!"
"There is a smaller spaceship with this speed in the same rule. Don't worry about this. Keep trying and you will find something new!"

"Well done! You discovered your first new spaceship! This spaceship has a speed of <SPEED>, and works in rules between <MINRULE> and <MAXRULE>"
"Woah... 5 spaceships discovered by you in <RULE>? You are amazing!"
"Woah... 10 spaceships discovered by you in <RULE>?! You are absolutely amazing!"
"You discovered the first spaceship in an outer-totalistic rule with speed <SPEED>. Well done!"
"You discovered the first spaceship in <RULE>. Well done!"

More achievement ideas:
- Slowship: discover any ship slower than Euclidean c/10.
- Smallship: discover any ship with minimum population less than or equal to 5.
- Strober: discover a new B0 ship.

Possible icons or badges for these achievements could be:
- Knight: Sir Robin
- Slowship: Copperhead
- Martian: this ship

Digression: We should create achievements for other neighbourhoods - lemon41625 is maintaining a HROT gliderdb. How about:
- Newman: discover a ship in a range-1 von Neumann rule.
- (I have no names for this): discover a ship with a new speed in a range-1 von Neumann rule.

I am working on a similar collection for R3 Cross.

[Mathemagician314]

I like the idea of bounties -- is the idea that you give away some of your own "points", and then whoever completes your bounty first gets those points? We should probably have a minimum number of points you need to give away to start a bounty, otherwise people could just spam them and cause chaos. Also, I know I keep asking this, but have we decided on what form this is going to take? Is it a website, like catagolue? An application, like golly? A database, like gliderdb? If we want to actually implement this idea we should decide.

[hibiscus]

I like the idea of bounties -- is the idea that you give away some of your own "points", and then whoever completes your bounty first gets those points? We should probably have a minimum number of points you need to give away to start a bounty, otherwise people could just spam them and cause chaos. Also, I know I keep asking this, but have we decided on what form this is going to take? Is it a website, like catagolue? An application, like golly? A database, like gliderdb? If we want to actually implement this idea we should decide.

For bounties, that's exactly what I wanted. Perhaps 3 points could be the minimum?

As for what form this is going to take, I'm sort of conflicted. A website could work, but alas I'm not very good at programming. If anyone cares, the current Github repository link is at https://www.github.com/iniquity816/omniraumschiff.

[Drelectron8]

I like the idea of bounties -- is the idea that you give away some of your own "points", and then whoever completes your bounty first gets those points? We should probably have a minimum number of points you need to give away to start a bounty, otherwise people could just spam them and cause chaos. Also, I know I keep asking this, but have we decided on what form this is going to take? Is it a website, like catagolue? An application, like golly? A database, like gliderdb? If we want to actually implement this idea we should decide.

I suggest we have a leaderboard, like a place to see who can get the most points, and I do agree that we need a website to make this project work.

=ACHEIVEMENT IDEA=

Mechanic: Make an engineered spaceship in the rule.

Below is the achievement image, made with a 2-Engine Cordership and tools in the background.

Drawing-2.sketchpad.jpeg (15.09 KiB) Viewed 7845 times

[Banananananan]

I believe that achievements should give you points. If they should (all of you decide), there should be rarities for achievements that give you different points. For example, common achievements like finding your first spaceship can grant you 1 or 2 points. But much more rare ones, like finding a new endemic spaceship, can grant you 150.
=Rarities=
Common (eg. Find your first spaceship)
Uncommon (eg. Getting old)
Rare (eg. Safari)
Legendary (eg. Martian)
Ethereal (eg. Endemic)

[hibiscus]

[..] finding a new endemic spaceship, can grant you 150.

That seems like way too much for one achievement! Perhaps just 3 points should be granted for Endemic achievements, if the community decides to implement this.

We've settled on a website, but I don't have any experience of making websites. Would anyone be keen to designing the website?

Anyways, here's a mockup for a user page:

mockup.png (67.25 KiB) Viewed 7584 times