Let's create a good language!

[fluffykitty]

That's true. So <haut-> "eye", <aizk-> "ear", <hlant-> "nose"?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

That's true. So <haut-> "eye", <aizk-> "ear", <hlant-> "nose"?

Look at the vocabulary tables. We already have two of those words. https://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/User:Sc ... d_on_stuff

[fluffykitty]

That's true. So <haut-> "eye", <aizk-> "ear", <hlant-> "nose"?

Look at the vocabulary tables. We already have two of those words. https://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/User:Sc ... d_on_stuff

Oh right. Still, <hlant-> "nose" is valid. Do you have any suggestions?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

That's true. So <haut-> "eye", <aizk-> "ear", <hlant-> "nose"?

Look at the vocabulary tables. We already have two of those words. https://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/User:Sc ... d_on_stuff

Oh right. Still, <hlant-> "nose" is valid. Do you have any suggestions?

<walt> arm
<klej> leg
<fax> foot

[fluffykitty]

<walt> arm
<klej> leg
<fax> foot

/lt/ isn't allowed as a coda, but most of the cases have vowels following the end of the stem so maybe the accusative could be <wal> and everything else would follow the stop/fricative declension normally.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

<walt> arm
<klej> leg
<fax> foot

/lt/ isn't allowed as a coda, but most of the cases have vowels following the end of the stem so maybe the accusative could be <wal> and everything else would follow the stop/fricative declension normally.

Ok, we could do that. I will update the page some now.

[fluffykitty]

We need some way of linking clauses together like the examples in this video. Maybe we could do that?

[Hunting]

In the middle of what?

In the middle of the noun.

[fluffykitty]

In the middle of what?

In the middle of the noun.

How would that even work?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

We need some way of linking clauses together like the examples in this video. Maybe we could do that?

I watched the video. It was very interesting. Maybe we could have 5 different converbs? Turkish also has a feature where you can detach suffixes from words. It isn't very common and mostly used in writing. <yap-acak-sa-m> = <yap-acakc ise-m>. That is the most common way it can be seen is with <ise> <if>. You can also do it with <idi>, <imiş>, and <idir>. All of them lose the initial <i> when they are suffixes. Should we have something like that?

Off topic: The Turkish present continuous suffix -yor comes from <yürümek> <to walk>! The video showed it in its archaic form <yorır>. Now I'm going to look up if <current> has anything to do with <courir> <to run> in French.
Edit: Yes it does! Translinguistic etymological similarities are the best. <muscle> comes from <mouse>, Arabic < ˁaḍala عضلة> <muscle> comes from <ˁaḍal عضل > <field mouse>, and Old Turkish <sıçganak> comes from <sıçgan> <mouse> (sıçan now means rat) all because the lump in your arm when you flex it looks like a mouse. I personally don't see it. Also French <souris d'agneau> (<souris> is mouse) means lamb shank. I will post this in the Fun Facts thread.

[fluffykitty]

We need some way of linking clauses together like the examples in this video. Maybe we could do that?

I watched the video. It was very interesting. Maybe we could have 5 different converbs?

Okay. Which ones do you think we should have?

Turkish also has a feature where you can detach suffixes from words. It isn't very common and mostly used in writing. <yap-acak-sa-m> = <yap-acakc ise-m>. That is the most common way it can be seen is with <ise> <if>. You can also do it with <idi>, <imiş>, and <idir>. All of them lose the initial <i> when they are suffixes. Should we have something like that?

I'm not sure.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Okay. Which ones do you think we should have?

Ok, I definitely think we should have ones for simultaneity, causality and condition.

[fluffykitty]

Okay. What should the endings be?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Okay. What should the endings be?

Simultaneity -nes
Causality -kaj
Condition -fe
Please come up with the other two converbs.

[Hunting]

Okay. What should the endings be?

Simultaneity -nes
Causality -kaj
Condition -fe
Please come up with the other two converbs.

Video transcript request.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Video transcript request.

I'll try to get it.

[fluffykitty]

Video transcript request.

Code: Select all

00:00
This video is brought to you by Campfire Technology.
00:03
More on that later.
00:11
One issue that just about every language needs to tackle is how to combine multiple clauses
00:16
into a single sentence.
00:17
Let’s say we have two verbs: “I ran” and “I fell”.
00:23
We could express them using two separate sentences, but if they’re related to each other or
00:28
happened one after the other, most languages will have some strategy for combining the
00:32
two verbs into one sentence.
00:35
Some languages, like Mandarin, are perfectly happy to simply place the two verb phrases
00:39
in apposition, while others, like English, demand a conjunction or other connecting element.
00:45
But another fairly common strategy found in many of the world’s languages is to use
00:49
a converb construction.
00:51
To put it simply, a converb is a form that turns a verb stem into an adverb, such that
00:57
a verb like “to run” becomes a word that means something along the lines of “runningly”
01:03
or “while running” or “in the manner of running”.
01:07
And once a verb stem has been made into a converb, it can be used to modify another
01:11
verb in the same sentence, which for our example, we can clumsily translate as: “I runningly
01:18
fell” or “Or I fell while running”.
01:22
If the converb has any arguments or adjuncts, then the entire phrase gets interpreted as
01:27
an adverb modifying the main verb, in this case becoming something like: “I fell while
01:32
running to the shop” or “I fell in the manner of running to the shop”.
01:38
Not only that, but many languages have multiple types of converbs that each specify a different
01:42
kind of temporal or causal relationship between the two clauses.
01:47
There might be separate forms to imply that the two clauses happened simultaneously, or
01:51
sequentially, or that one clause happened as a result of the other.
01:55
Using these sorts of converb constructions we can string together as many clauses as
01:59
we want.
02:01
About 35% of the world’s languages use converbs in some capacity, but the exact way they’re
02:07
used can vary significantly from language to language.
02:11
The most commonly attested pathway to the development of converbs is for them to evolve
02:15
from other non-finite verb forms, usually verbal nouns, like gerunds or infinitives,
02:21
or verbal adjectives, like participles.
02:24
If we wanted to combine the phrases “The man was going to the shop” and “the man
02:29
saw a dog”, one way we could do it would be to turn the first verb into a noun, with
02:34
a meaning of “the act or state of going to the shop”, and then using an adposition
02:40
or even a case marker to convey a spatial relationship, which may get interpreted as
02:44
something like “The man, in the act of going to the shop, saw a dog”.
02:49
And over time, the combination of the verbal noun plus the case marker gets reanalysed
02:54
as its own distinct verb form, and its meaning is interpreted as having an adverbial sense.
03:00
Alternatively, another common way for converbs to evolve is from participles, which, in languages
03:05
like Ancient Greek and Latin, are used in much the same way as converbs for the purposes
03:10
of combining clauses.
03:12
Crucially though, participles are adjectives, and therefore they modify a specific noun
03:17
in the clause, not the verb itself like a converb does.
03:21
But with time, the participle may be reanalysed as describing the clause as a whole rather
03:26
than any particular noun within it.
03:29
Some languages are content to let participles serve double duty in this way, sometimes giving
03:34
them the rather confusing term “adverbial participle”.
03:38
But just like with converbs that derive from verbal nouns, it’s quite common for these
03:42
participles to combine with case markers or other adpositional morphology to form new
03:47
full-fledged converbs.
03:49
Each of the language’s case markers may independently combine with the various verbal
03:53
nouns or participles, or sometimes even other converbs, to give rise to a different type
03:58
of converb, with the case marker’s original meaning being metaphorically extended to describe
04:03
the relationship between the converb clause and the main clause.
04:07
In our earlier example, we used a locative case marker to encode that the action of the
04:11
converb happens at the same time as the main verb, having a similar function to the English
04:16
conjunctions “while” or “when”.
04:19
This simultaneous or imperfective converb is one of the most cross-linguistically common
04:24
types of converb, and usually evolves from case markers with some sort of locative function.
04:30
Meanwhile the ablative or a similar case often gives rise to a perfective or anterior converb,
04:36
which signals that the converb clause was completed before the action of the main verb
04:40
phrase, roughly approximated in English with “having done” or “after”.
04:46
Many languages also distinguish a specific converb for sequential or consecutive actions,
04:51
denoting that the converb clause and the main clause happened one after the other.
04:55
The Purposive converb indicates that the main verb was carried out in order to complete
05:00
the action of the converb clause.
05:02
This form usually evolves from the dative, allative, or sometimes instrumental cases.
05:07
Conversely, the Causal converb signifies that the main clause was carried out as a result
05:13
of the converb clause, and usually evolves from the Instrumental or occasionally the
05:17
ergative case.
05:19
Many languages will also have a distinct conditional converb, which sets up the converb clause
05:24
as a condition under which the main verb happens, equivalent to the English word “if”.
05:30
This converb most often comes from an ablative or locative case, which when combined with
05:35
the verbal noun or participle may lead to an interpretation of “in the event of”.
05:40
The Concessive converb is used to draw a contrast between the converb clause and the main clause,
05:46
similar to “although” in English.
05:48
This usually comes from ablative case morphology, although it’s also sometimes formed from
05:53
the conditional converb.
05:56
Those are some of the most common types of converbs, but individual languages will often
06:00
mix and match case markers and verb forms to create some very specific interpretations.
06:05
Some languages have a terminative converb that marks the converb clause as the condition
06:09
under which the main verb will end, some have a converb that emphasizes that the two clauses
06:14
happen one immediately after the other, some have a converb that defines that the two clauses
06:19
as happening in the same location, or any number of other specialized interpretations.
06:25
Languages may vary in the number of converbs they distinguish, ranging only a handful,
06:30
like Turkish, to as many as several dozen like Korean or Akhvakh.
06:34
However, just as how case markers usually fill various non-canonical functions, any
06:40
given converb will typically be used in a variety of ways beyond its default interpretation.
06:45
Even in languages with very large converb inventories, some converbs will have a much
06:50
broader or more general sense than others.
06:53
Equally, however, a language may also have multiple different converbs that all serve
06:57
the same or a very similar function, only distinguished from each other by what specific
07:01
contexts they’re allowed to be used in.
07:04
Since converbs usually evolve from non-finite verb forms, most of the marking for person,
07:09
number, and tense will go on the main verb of the sentence, while the converbs usually
07:14
won’t take any of the typical verb morphology, or if they do, they’ll only take a reduced
07:19
or limited set, although there are occasional exceptions to this.
07:24
Most often, the subject of the converb clause will be assumed to be the same as the subject
07:28
of the main verb unless otherwise specified.
07:31
Once converbs have evolved, they’re very likely to become grammaticalized into new
07:35
constructions.
07:37
Beyond the clause chaining we discussed earlier, converbs serve as a very convenient way to
07:41
combine multiple verb meanings into a single lexeme.
07:45
If a specific converb phrase sees especially frequent use, its constituents may end up
07:50
fusing into a single adverb.
07:52
In Finnish, the word for “clearly” or “visibly” derives from a converb clause
07:57
meaning “in the manner of seeing with eyes”, while the word meaning “in fact” or “honestly”
08:03
comes from the converb phrase “while speaking the truth”.
08:08
Converbs can also give rise to new tenses, aspects, or moods when used in auxiliary verb
08:12
constructions.
08:14
Once again, the auxiliary will typically take all the marking for person and tense while
08:18
the lexical verb will be rendered as a converb and left without any such marking.
08:23
Further evolution may result in the auxiliary fusing with the converbs to become new verb
08:28
morphology.
08:29
Converbs may also evolve into new adpositions, conjunctions, or discourse markers.
08:34
A cross-linguistically common development is for the verb “to say” in converb form
08:39
to evolve into a complementizer for verbs of speech and thinking.
08:43
In Manchu, the two different words that roughly translate to “until” are derived from
08:48
a combination of the terminative converb and the verb stems “to reach” and “to become”.
08:53
And in Turkish, the converb form of “to come” can be used as a sort of topic marker.
08:59
The ability of converbs to turn any verb phrase into a modifier makes them incredibly useful
09:04
and versatile, and so a language that employs converbs to any degree will likely have them
09:09
manifest in many areas of its grammar.
09:11
So, in summary, if you want to include converbs in a conlang: Decide what types of converbs
09:17
you want to include, combine non-finite verb forms with case markers, adpositions, or other
09:23
particles to create converb morphology, extrapolate additional meanings and uses for each of your
09:29
converbs based on the case markers they evolved from, and grammaticalize converbs into new
09:34
compounds, adpositions, discourse markers, and verb morphology.
09:39
Overall, converbs can be immensely useful for deriving all manner of grammatical constructions,
09:44
but another tool that’s bound to be a big help for any conlanger is Campfire.
09:49
Campfire Pro is a writing and worldbuilding program designed to help you document every
09:53
aspect of your conlang and its associated conworld.
09:56
On top of the entries for plotlines, character arcs, maps, and timelines provided by the
10:01
standard package, the worldbuilding pack includes a massive bundle of new features, including
10:06
pages for species, cultures, religions, magic systems, philosophies, politics, and, yes,
10:12
conlangs.
10:13
The languages page lets you tabulate your sounds and lexemes in the phonetics and dictionary
10:18
tabs, while the grammar and pragmatics tabs use a simple and intuitive interface to help
10:22
you organize all of your language’s morphology, inflectional paradigms, and idioms into customizable
10:28
and easily navigable subdivisions.
10:30
To try all these features out for yourself, you can sign up for a 10 day free trial, after
10:35
which you can get the standard package for a one time purchase of $50 US dollars plus
10:39
$25 for the worldbuilding pack.
10:42
If you’re interested or want to learn more, check out the link in the description.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Please come up with the other two converbs.

[fluffykitty]

Please come up with the other two converbs.

Maybe purposive <-ois> and terminative <-ant>?

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Maybe purposive <-ois> and terminative <-ant>?

Okay, I get purposive but what is terminative? I can't find anything useful on the Internet. The suffixes are good.

[fluffykitty]

It's mentioned in the video.

[Schiaparelliorbust]

It's mentioned in the video.

Thanks. I think we should start coming up with more verbs now. Here are some:
to move - henamai
to sit -kalmai
to hold - pokumai
to breathe - zasai
to touch - talnomai

Was infinitive <-aj> or <-ai>? I forgot and I didn't update my user page so it still says it's <-ay>. Could you also please post the verbs we have?

[fluffykitty]

Infinitive is -(m)ai, verbs so far (that aren't derivations) are

Code: Select all

tzekomai	to drink
zyfkmai		to say
slaucmai	to speak
saitai		to be
kenumai		to become
janai		to come
faplomai	to want
fezai		to have
henamai		to move
kalmai		to sit
pokumai		to hold
zasai		to breathe
talnomai	to touch

[Schiaparelliorbust]

Infinitive is -(m)ai, verbs so far (that aren't derivations) are

Code: Select all

tzekomai	to drink
zyfkmai		to say
slaucmai	to speak
saitai		to be
kenumai		to become
janai		to come
faplomai	to want
fezai		to have
henamai		to move
kalmai		to sit
pokumai		to hold
zasai		to breathe
talnomai	to touch

In English there are some verbs that can be both transitive and intransitive. From this list there is <move>, some other examples can be <spread>, <start>, <change>, and <stop>. I think there should be a suffix for intransitive -> transitive in this language.

[fluffykitty]

Seems kinda like the subject->object promotion suffix I proposed earlier.